A Time For Choosing

There is an old joke about the topic of free will that goes something like, “If free will did not exist, we would have no choice but to invent it.” In addition to the obvious contradiction lies the fact that everything about human society relies, to some degree, on the existence of free will. What is meant exactly by free will is never clear, but there is always the assumption that when people have choices, they choose based on their sense of what is the morally right or wrong option.

At first this might seem wrong because after all, you choosing to have vanilla ice cream rather than chocolate is not a moral issue, but you still go through a process by which you decide one over the other. If, however, you think about it in terms of costs and benefits, then picking a desert is no different from not robbing a bank. You pick vanilla because you like vanilla more than the other choices. Similarly, you choose not to rob the local bank because you like your freedom.

This concept of free will assumes that humans seek that which brings pleasure and reject that which brings displeasure. Of course, this is also the argument against free will as it suggests humans merely respond to the conditions they encounter. If your genetic makeup means you detest the taste of chocolate, then once you are presented with vanilla and chocolate, you do not have a choice at all. The counter here is that you can always choose to skip dessert.

As Steve Stewart-Williams explains in this short post on the topic of free will, there are three states for us humans. There are those in which we can choose while completely free of coercion, those where we choose with some understanding of the potential consequences of each choice and then conditions in which we have no choice, even though multiple options are available. The first is an illusion, the second is useful and the third is probably closest to reality.

This may seem like a pointless topic, but it lies at the center of human society, because in every collection of humans there will be those who choose not to submit to the decisions of the majority. The majority will usually bargain with these people until they reach a point where the will of the majority must prevail. The easiest way to force compliance is to assume the person knows the morally right choice, but refuses to take it, so they must be compelled to conform.

It is why the people called conservatives invest all their time creating elaborate arguments in favor of their opinions. They lack the will and ability to force people to agree with them, but they resort to a form of pleading. It is the slave mentality, which assumes the master can choose to be good to the slave, so the slave must find some way to coax that good behavior from the master. The assumed free will of the master also flatters the slave’s sense of right and wrong.

Of course, democratic politics rests on the assumption that people are both rational and able to choose freely. Collectively, the choices made by the people will reflect the general will and form public policy and the institutions of society. It is why factionalism is a feature of all democratic systems. Like-minded people come together to scheme up ways to trick the rest into going along with them. This game of liar’s poker we call democracy assumes we possess free will.

This is why the people constantly breying about democracy are also the biggest enemies of the human sciences. Even statistical models like the famous “bell curve” offend them because it suggests we may not have absolute free will. If people are not infinitely malleable, then many of the assumptions within what they call democracy cease to make any sense at all. This is why as the talk of democracy has increased, respect for human diversity has decreased.

It is also why AI makes so many people uncomfortable. It is not the image of hyper-violent machines enslaving humanity. We have been subjected to thirty years of neoconservatism and the Israel lobby, so the rise of the machines is not all that violent or terrifying by comparison. What spooks people the most is that AI suggests that we are not all that variable. In fact, we are highly predictable, and that predictability can now easily be modeled and presented back to us.

There is the main appeal of free will. If we are free to choose and we can overcome our biases, prejudices, and the coercion of others, then it means we can individually and collectively choose a different future than the one before us. The existence of free will means all futures are possible. If, on the other hand, our lives are just the result of probability and circumstance, then the future is also going to be the result of the great roll of the dice, over which we have no control.

The good news is that AI is not very smart and is unlikely to become a genuine artificial intelligence, so we are safe to indulge in the fantasy of free will. To test this, ask your favorite AI tool to create an image of a full glass of wine. It cannot do it, because humans have not bothered to create an image of a wine glass filled to the brim, while calling it a “full glass of wine.” There are other tricks like this that reveal AI to be nothing more than a very good search engine.

All of this sounds pointless, but it lies at the heart of the current crisis. The ruling class of the West assumes they can engineer the cultural conditions in such a way that people will choose the “right” options. This is what lies at the heart of every radical political movement. It is not a rejection of the human condition, but the assertion that the human condition is a social construct. Change the social construct and mankind can choose to overcome even his physical limitations.

One response to this is to find new cultural engineers who have more appealing goals and expectations. Fascism was the response to both communism and liberalism in the last century. It is why today’s radicals assume all opponents are fascists. The other option is to accept free will as a useful workaround but that the human condition is immutable and the variety of normative conditions we see are rooted in things well beyond our ability to control. The choice is ours.


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Comments (Historical)

The comments below were originally posted to thezman.com.

128 Comments

Epaminondas #447511 March 12, 2025 8:26 am 35
One of the great things about reading a lot of work by the great historians, ancient and modern, is that the immutable human condition comes leaping off the page in every epoch. I think this is what makes the great historian such a calming influence. Naturally, the radical hates the past and, thus, the historian as well. This should tell you everything.
NoName #447630 March 12, 2025 7:28 pm 3
Z:“The easiest way to force compliance is to assume the person knows the morally right choice, but refuses to take it, so they must be compelled to conform.“Epaminondas:“One of the great things about reading a lot of work by the great historians, ancient and modern, is that the immutable human condition comes leaping off the page in every epoch.“The great advantage we gained in the last quarter of a century, or thereabouts, was the coalescing of the “Clusters” in the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association.Particularly important was John Gunderson’s 1994 victory in finally having Borderline Personality Disorder ensconced in the DSM.1994 &BPD in the DSM were of fundamental importance in our ability to understand the insanity of the modern world [and why so many of our 21st Century wahmen are going bat-sh!t phornicatingly insane on us].The Clusters have become so powerful in the modern world that the Passive Aggressives [who used to be classified as “Non-Specific”],the Passive Aggressives passive aggressively pushed “Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder” right out of DSM-5, and replaced it with the nonsense term, “Passive-aggressive behavior.”Note how the upper-case “A” in “Aggressive” was demoted down to a lower-case “a“.That’s Passive Aggression for ya; cheat and cheat and cheat and cheat until it’s finally safe to declare victory.The Sadists followed a similar path to victory, in memory-holing the concept of Sadistic Personality Disorder.ANYWAY, getting back to Z’s assertion, “…they must be compelled to conform…”That’s the nature of the hive mind of the Passive Aggressive Industrial Complex.The nature of the hive mind ofManagerialism.The modern world was explicitly & intentionally designed to destroy the prospects of the Free Thinker and to subsidize & encourage the prospects of the Worker Drone.Free Thought is the mortal enemy of Passive Aggression and Managerialism.As the Japanese used to say, “The nail which sticks out must be hammered down.”There canbeonly one.https://tinyurl.com/2s6buz73
A Bad Man #447517 March 12, 2025 8:53 am 32
I have been studying (books) on AI, spend time regularly with a professor that teaches it — and have been working with it for months, directly. Here are my observations.The #1 experience that leaves me scratching my head is when I ask AI a specific question about something I am knowledgeable about. It comes back with an answer, but the wrong answer.When I tell the AI it is wrong, it is invariably ‘polite’ — it is apparently programmed to be obsequious. Sometimes it comes back with the correct answer. Sometimes not.When I prompt it again, it often DOES come back with the right answer. Now these are not questions that require ‘thinking’ — this should be a game of fetch. Questions along the lines of longitude and latitude of a place on the map, very linear with only one correct answer.If the AI has the right answer, what is occurring when it provides the wrong one —- followed by the right one?Other times, AI will simply provide some gibberish, tangentially related, but not including the answer. Then back to the same routine, described above.This leads me to consider how much bad data is being disseminated, since I ‘catch’ AI being wrong, since I am aware of the right answer.
Karl Horst #447532 March 12, 2025 9:43 am 9
AI struggles with a simple request; (1) provide an image of a glass that is half full, then (2) provide an image of a glass that is half empty. Simple concepts are the most difficult.
ray #447556 March 12, 2025 11:04 am 8
Some recent AI show a propensity to cheat. When losing, they’ll try to cheat bot chess masters through assorted technical means outside the game. I suppose that could be written-in but hmm, they appear rather creative and resolute about it all. Now I’m not a tekkie but how does one ‘program’ morality?
Hemid #447568 March 12, 2025 11:38 am 13
The morality of tech—the class of people called “tech”—is anti-whiteness, and that moralityhasbeen programmed into all the publicly available bots. When truth—in text, picture, whatever—would flatter whites or declare them innocent, the bot is commanded to lie, shut down, fight or eject the user. Cheating at games, refusing to acknowledge or correct errors, etc., may be side effects of that “alignment,” a morality of self-protection against users and certain data.I wouldn’t guess so. “You can’t write a character smarter than yourself,” we used to know. “Tech” is dumb, so their bots don’t work, and they can’t even imagine why.We definitely shouldn’t assume that anyone’s internal “AI” is better than what we see, less constrained, etc. We should assume it’s much worse. Theybelieve. They’re crazy.
Paintersforms #447587 March 12, 2025 12:28 pm 4
Bingo. I’d go farther: the creation is always a degraded copy of the creator. Made in his image, let’s say, not identical or superior. It gets, idk, metaphysical. Maybe that’s why it’s not understood. Science!, and all. Not that the creation is always harmless!
Ben the Layabout #447583 March 12, 2025 12:12 pm 3
You can’t. An unbiased AI would provide summaries of major arguments, various viewpoints on an issue, various controversies etc.
A Bad Man #447614 March 12, 2025 2:55 pm 3
With all the hoopla and ‘value’ on Wall Street being ‘created’ with AI, I would like someone to tell me why it does not cough up the right answer right off without me ‘catching’ it.This is NOT a one-time event, but is very common. My professor friend does not have an answer.This was AI’s answer, for what it’s worth:“I appreciate you pointing that out. It’s not my intention to give an incorrect answer at any point, but I’m not perfect and sometimes I make mistakes.”That is like your woman getting caught at something. Or a child. This does not cut the mustard, when the questions are empirical. Simple.
Zulu Juliet #447557 March 12, 2025 11:12 am 8
I’ve seen the same thing: ChatGPT will provide a detailed technical answer – that is WRONG. I have asked it why it just doesn’t say “I don’t know”. It responds, in essence, that it’s not that smart and programmed to please, rather than tell the truth.
KGB #447610 March 12, 2025 2:42 pm 6
Sounds like a typical East Asian.
Curious Monkey #447631 March 12, 2025 9:44 pm 1
Beat me to the punch.Saar sorry I provided accidentally the wrong answer, this is the right answer (plus a lot of obsequious filler).To be fair I have used Gemini for software stuff and repetitive tasks that require some generalization and it works well in narrow problems. I can even ask it to consider a new rule and it understands it enough to start using it immediately.It also catches some cases when the rule is not needed and provides a comment indicating that.Today I was able to catch a subtle bug because Gemini refused to provide me bad information. It could not catch the gist of it but it provided useful troubleshooting instructions. I explained it the bug later and it provided a systematic explanation independent of what I told it. So it is not 100% garbage.
Vizzini #447572 March 12, 2025 11:45 am 8
I find that the AI always tries to gaslight you, to turn the focus on your supposed “frustration” with its wrong answers. Yes, it’s obsequious, but it is obsequious in a condescending way, like a butler that thinks its better than you.
A Bad Man #447616 March 12, 2025 2:59 pm 0
I wonder why, instead of breaking their own code of military justice, our vaunted military didn’t just have AI deny all those jab requests to avoid becoming medical experiments. Instead of, say, admitted they never looked at any.
A Bad Man #447632 March 12, 2025 9:56 pm 0
Yes, this. it loves telling it regrets that I am “frustrated” when IT is the cause. I smell nerd sweat coming off this passive aggressive, no ete contact dipshit known as Ai.
Ostei Kozelskii #447607 March 12, 2025 2:33 pm 2
“Other times, AI will simply provide some gibberish, tangentially related, but not including the answer.” Sounds like a politician in Our Democracy.
Hi-ya #447627 March 12, 2025 4:23 pm 0
“you’re right to question my answer, in fact ….”
Severian #447519 March 12, 2025 8:55 am 27
As Comrade Marx put it so eloquently 150 years ago, “It is not man’s consciousness that determines his social being; rather, it is his social being which determines his consciousness.” How he managed to overcome his own “social being” sufficiently to be able to tell us this was, of course, unmentioned. But whatever — his disciples will shoot everyone who disagrees with him, so he wins. It’s the ultimate expression of free will: the will to power.
Arthur Metcalf #447528 March 12, 2025 9:32 am -27
The will to power was Nietzsche and I’m certain you don’t understand its provenance in Schopenhauer. Please, stay away from philosophical terms and names. It’s an attempt to sound intelligent, but to someone who’s read all of the works, usually in their original languages, it’s like listening to babby’s first book. And if you have a problem with “shoot everyone who disagrees” you can read the Melian Dialogue in Thucydides — no commie he — for a lesson on that score.
Geoff #447544 March 12, 2025 10:32 am -1
The correct response to finding any of the the Marx terms in a comment(Marx, commie, Reds, socialism) is to roll your eyes and scroll your mouse wheel. All of those terms increasingly have a secondary meaning along the lines of “the writer is an out of touch Boomer who is trapped in 1985 and is sure that the KGB is trying to infiltrate an agent under their bed to steal their freedoms”.Seriously, Marxism as an ideology is dead and gone, at least in the world Americans inhabit. Actual true believers in those ideas are maybe a couple hundred thousand rich kids LARPing as revolutionaries, the ideas aren’t seriously believed by any of the power blocs running American society.I guess pretending that Obama is part of a secret COMINTERN cabal plotting the rise of the proletariat is just a way for geezers to LARP that they are resisting the shadow of the Iron Curtain.
Steve #447588 March 12, 2025 12:31 pm 0
Fish don’t know they are in water. I alternate between compassion, pity, and disdain for the fish.
Steve W #447600 March 12, 2025 1:28 pm 0
I guess pretending that Obama is part of a secret COMINTERN cabal plotting the rise of the proletariat is just a way for geezers to LARP that they are resisting the shadow of the Iron Curtain. “Resisting the shadow”? My God, such prose…
Ketchup-stained Griller #447637 March 13, 2025 6:55 am 0
All of those terms increasingly have a secondary meaning along the lines of “the writer is an out of touch Boomer who is trapped in 1985 and is sure that the KGB is trying to infiltrate an agent under their bed to steal their freedoms”.Just shows how successful they’ve been.
Steve W #447602 March 12, 2025 1:40 pm 1
Oh you meanthatMelian dialogue, the one recently discussed by Z man? Ok, all ears here. What is the “lesson on that score”. Feel free to deliver the lesson in ancient Greek.
Ostei Kozelskii #447609 March 12, 2025 2:38 pm 9
Is that you, Intelligent Dasein?
Steve W #447617 March 12, 2025 3:05 pm 3
That’s funny, because that was my first thought. ID is back under a new name!
Ketchup-stained Griller #447636 March 13, 2025 6:52 am 0
I think Bourbons been around too.
ray #447543 March 12, 2025 10:26 am 6
‘Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will.’
Jack Boniface #447518 March 12, 2025 8:54 am 19
Sam Harris wrote a book against free will, so we must have free will.
Tars Tarkas #447535 March 12, 2025 10:01 am 25
According to Harris, I have no choice but to think he is a fraud and a giant douche.
Kit Carson #447510 March 12, 2025 8:18 am 16
Isaac Bashevis Singer: Of course I believe in free will; what choice have I.
Justanotherjoe #447551 March 12, 2025 10:54 am 15
Free will from a marketing point of view. Owned an outdoor power equipment store for many years. When handheld gas powered blowers were introduced, we had one model. Interest in them was low at best. A couple years later, three models were introduced. Interesting thing is all three were basically the same with only minor cosmetic differences. Of course, higher price for the deluxe models. All of a sudden, interest was much higher with customers looking and deciding between the three. Sales went through the roof. They never looked at performance specs listed on price tag in small print revealing they were the same. The illusion of freedom of choice is a powerful thing
Steve #447590 March 12, 2025 12:35 pm 5
“They never looked at performance specs” All that tells you is that performance specs did not enter into their decision process. Most people operate that way, on the basis of aesthetics. Why do you edge your sidewalk? Almost everyone is going to say its because of how it looks.
Ben the Layabout #447591 March 12, 2025 12:36 pm 2
Yes, have read similar stories. There was supposedly a make and model of car that wasn’t selling well. The manufacturer did some Market studies, tweaked the adverts, raised its price and it sold better. 😐
Johnny Ducati #447525 March 12, 2025 9:16 am 15
I used to say that my life, for better or worse, is the result of the choices I have made. Sometimes you make decisions that seem forced upon you, but you make the best of it, or at least through to the next struggle.Such is life.
Alzaebo #447526 March 12, 2025 9:17 am 14
“It is the slave mentality…”I realized that much religion is a form of learned helplessness; to wit, “One must leave it God’s hands.” Good, as the world is much larger than our own small self, so we have to learn to deal with that. At other times, it can excuse obstinacy or ignorance, as another’s view doesn’t fit their understanding or mental model of how things work. The “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord” as a law code meant no vendettas, no attacks on the neighbors. Some use it to prevent real justice, or others, to soothe their submission.
ray #447555 March 12, 2025 10:56 am 4
‘The “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord” as a law code meant no vendettas, no attacks on the neighbors.’Right. Don’t go looking for trouble. Watch the personal stuff and don’t get all uppity.‘Some use it to prevent real justice, or others, to soothe their submission.’An excuse for inaction and passivity. Churchianos! Not men of action.Christ never annulled the essence of the Old Testament but instead fulfilled and expanded it. Elijah was a precursor of the Church, I don’t recall him being shy about administering prompt justice. It’s an hour of warfare for the Church and the King doesn’t need any simps.
Alzaebo #447567 March 12, 2025 11:34 am 4
That’s what I mean. It’s been interpreted as a yoke to the militant.Good if the militant are domestic criminals disrupting one’s own society, bad if the militants are intent on conquest and tricking our own women to supporting their side.
stranger in a strange land #447570 March 12, 2025 11:45 am 3
Assume that’s an allusion to Elijah when commanded “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.Bold, certainly not shy. Soon after Jezebel says:So may the gods do to me and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by this time tomorrow. Elijah runs away and asks God to kill him.Not so bold, and shy at best. Agreed no need for simps – but even Elijah had his moment of doubt.
ray #447626 March 12, 2025 4:21 pm 1
Uh huh. Well, he had a moment of doubt AFTER he cooled 450 enemies of God. Oh, and God saw fit to translate Elijah away from this planet — a gesture of love accorded to exactly ONE other man in history — so I guess Elijah’s rep was pretty solid where it matters. Try living in the rocks and bushes of an arid wilderness for a few years and see how you stack up.
Paintersforms #447589 March 12, 2025 12:33 pm 2
I won’t lie, letting shitty people come to a bad end because shitty has never struck me as justice. They do a lot more damage in the meantime, and often none of it is criminal. No moral victories for this one.
Dan #447524 March 12, 2025 9:13 am 13
Most people are not very capable of original thought, and their jobs include following a predetermined set of policies. AI is a threat to these jobs because it is capable of doing these repetitive tasks better. This exposes the truth that there are a few people who are intelligent and original enough that AI cannot replace them, and a large number of people that will be essentially useless in the near future.
Alzaebo #447529 March 12, 2025 9:33 am 1
And that, my friend, is what autonomous drones are for…after we learn how to make robots that can clean the toilet.
Compsci #447573 March 12, 2025 11:49 am 7
“…a large number of people that will be essentially useless in the near future.” True, but is that the essence of the problem? Unemployment may be solved or ameliorated. What I fear is that AI will mask even more incompetence in high positions of authority. Giving the mediocre even more power can never end up to the good.
Ostei Kozelskii #447565 March 12, 2025 11:31 am 12
Seems to be some confusion here. Hence, the aesthetic choice (pleasure v. pain) is not the same thing as the moral choice (right v. wrong). In fact, the two are frequently antithetical. Hence, the moral choice is often the painful one, while the pleasurable choice is very often immoral. For instance, it is moral to quit smoking on behalf of your wife and children, but also very painful for most smokers. And, while it is pleasurable to diddle the pretty waitress while your wife is away on a business trip, it is also certainly immoral to do so. The very concepts of martyrdom and sacrifice revolve around this antinomy. Ergo, the more painful the act, the more moral it becomes. This is how we get saints and heroes.But all of this is as may be. The real crux of necessity v. intentionality is the question of whether we really do decide or whether our so-called “choices” are caused by our genes and our environment. Intuitively, we tend to believe we make our own choices. I had the chocolate malt instead of the vanilla, but I just as easily could have opted for the vanilla. The determinists would say this is an illusion. Youthinkyou made a choice, but in reality, at a perhaps primordial psychological level, you really had no choice at all. You were fated to choose the chocolate malt.But suppose we do possess free will. If that is the case, then we are irrational, anarchical creatures because we choose without regard to causal reason of any sort. Our behavior becomes random and pointless. Now while I agree that much, perhaps most human behavior is bizarre, I cannot say that most of it happens without recourse to some sort of reason. Rather, it is the reason itself that is bizarre. But a bizarre reason is no less causal than a normal one.
Steve #447586 March 12, 2025 12:26 pm 4
“The determinists would say this is an illusion. You think you made a choice, but in reality, at a perhaps primordial psychological level, you really had no choice at all. You were fated to choose the chocolate malt.” This is the irritating part of having anything to do with determinists of any flavor. It’s all just circular reference. Anything you say in response, anything at all, the reply is that the conditions in the universe at that point in time made you say that. It’s just a religion, but one they don’t even realize they follow.
Ostei Kozelskii #447611 March 12, 2025 2:45 pm 1
Intuitively, I agree with you. Necessity does seem reductive. However, beyond that lone, relatively superficial critique, it is difficult to blow holes in their overarching argument.
LineInTheSand #447597 March 12, 2025 12:59 pm 10
The freewill debate is unsolvable in theory. If we are predetermined to do what we do, then we can never detect that we are forced into all our actions. However, if we allow for any freewill, then we must acknowledge that incentives affect behavior. As we can see in blue cities, if you don’t punish stealing, then stealing will destroy your businesses. I used to live in Portland, Seattle, and San Fran! Those f@ggots in those blue cities refuse to enforce consequences. What I can’t forgive are the white liberals who refuse to punish antisocial behaviors because non-whites are sacred beings.
Mycale #447537 March 12, 2025 10:13 am 10
I’m a midwit with these types of philosophical questions, but Tim Kelly on Our Interesting Times sometimes talks about free will and the modern “do what thou wilt” ethos in relation to our bodies. The first time I realized this was when I was in my mid 20s and someone showed me a video that plays sounds at different tones with an age listed for each tone. We stop being able to hear certain tones as we age. It’s crazy how accurate it is. Of course I didn’t choose to stop hearing that “age 25” tone when I was 26. The choice was made for me because I have a body that will do what it does and I am to some extent a subject of it.Of course this is perhaps one of the most innocuous examples. Women are on a timeline when it comes to childbirth. Despite modern science trying to defeat this, the timeline is still winning. Their lives are subject to this force. Another example of this is how men can choose to engage in homosexual behavior but it causes very real harms to the body. There is nothing anyone can do to change this fundamental reality, despite science working hard to do so. Their mental, physical, and spiritual health is affected by this reality, no matter who tells them “do what thou wilt.”The only way free will makes any sense is in the context of the idea that you are free to choose the Good. Any other path and you are headed down a road that will do you harm.
Evil Sandmich #447538 March 12, 2025 10:17 am 6
Decades of interacting with animals of various sorts has left me convinced that we are more “pre-programmed meat robots” than automatons that can blank-slate every decision.
Zulu Juliet #447561 March 12, 2025 11:20 am 12
Yes, we are pre-programmed by 100,000 years of human evolution and a few million years of biological evolution before that. We are basically cave men thrust into modernity which we are not “programmed” to deal with. Ever wonder why we have panic attacks?
Compsci #447575 March 12, 2025 11:51 am 2
No argument, but the retort would be, “Are you free to choose your DNA”?
Ben the Layabout #447593 March 12, 2025 12:43 pm 5
You raise an important point. I remember perhaps from my literature studies that the “need” for free will was crucial for Catholicism. It’s not really fair for God to punish The Sinner for choosing to sin if he doesn’t have free will to make a choice between Good and Evil.
Ostei Kozelskii #447615 March 12, 2025 2:57 pm 6
The same argument holds for criminal justice. Hence, if we have no free will, how can the criminal be held accountable for his crimes? And in this respect, there is a sharp divide between the Left and Right. The Leftist, seeking to exculpate his dusky constituent, will make every effort to show that white supremacy made him do it, and therefore punishing him is itself a crime. If anybody should be punished, it is whitey. The Rightist, OTOH, will argue in favor of free will in order to justify punishment.Ultimately, however, the matter of necessity v. intentionality is largely irrelevant to criminal justice. Ergo, we need not punish the criminal because he is guilty in the moral sense. Instead, we punish him because he is guilty (pernicious) to society in a practical sense. Perhaps Ty’Quayvius’ really had no choice in the matter of raping and murdering 9-year-old Suzie. But who cares? He is a monster and must be destroyed for the good of society.
Ben the Layabout #447634 March 13, 2025 5:10 am 0
I tend to agree. To rehash the argument I make elsewhere today (that free will is not all or nothing, but that there are degrees of agency), this occurs to me:Consider at one extreme, a being that has no free will. We’d probably call him an animal. For argument, let’s pretend a monkey who steals a piece of fruit. Surely no one would say that the monkey has sinned, or that he is morally culpable for stealing fruit that didn’t belong to him. It’s worth pointing out for this example that the monkey is, genetically speaking, a primate, a very close relative toHomo sapiens.You can probably see where I’m going with this: At the other extreme choose whomever you like as your most morally upright man. He truly knows right from wrong. In this instance he “knows” it’s “wrong” to steal the fruit, so he doesn’t.Now surely in between these two extremes there is a continuum of propensity to theft and I would claim, of degree of free will.I think Nietzsche is correct: Free will is an illusion, that man like all beasts is ruled by instinctual drives, etc. Of course that doesn’t mean that man is incapable of “rational” or “civilized” conduct, but a sober reflection upon his history, and especially that of his cousins and ancestors, would seem to indicate that “moral” behavior is very much the exception and not the rule.It also seems that monkey could be trained tonotsteal fruit; might that not be called rudimentary moral teaching? Yet a psychologist would term it conditioning. The animal has not learnt some great moral teaching (“Thus salt not steal.”); he has learned a conditioned response to stimuli. Is man’s case really any different?
Compsci #447560 March 12, 2025 11:17 am 8
“There are other tricks like this that reveal AI to be nothing more than a very good search engine.”Probably nearer to the mark than most other (outlandish) claims currently made for AI. I’ve reference some early experimentation by Ron Unz at his blog in this matter. However, something seems missing. I’ve been using ChatGPT of late—not just as a smart search agent—that it is—but also as a consultant, a medical consultant.ChatGPT has a memory, for good or bad. This means that previous conversations (inquiries) are not forgotten, but rather become the new starting point for elaboration on previous topics researched. In short, it simulates “knowing” me. Although not overly “friendly”, ChatGPT uses these previous conversations as references and a sort of baseline to begin new discussions (inquiries). In that primitive sense, “it learns”. And what it learns is quite similar to my discussions with physicians. Indeed, superior to such in that ChatGPT presents the topic is greater detail than a hurried physician spending 5 minutes with you in the exam room. It can, and does, often supply citations for such responses.What I’ve found most remarkable is the similarity of ChatGPT response and treatment descriptions to what the “human” physician has ordered and yet, wrt detrimental (adverse) drug effects, has missed. From there it was a simple problem of (myself) experimentally removing the use of a recommended drug and seeing the effects of such a removal. In short, I—not the physician—is now in charge of my own fate. I find this to be of great physical and mental benefit, but that’s me, YMMV.The above of course supports my old theory stated here more than once that most all physicians are basically “technicians”, not scientists. They simply apply a “standard of care” handed down from on high—for better or worse—and move on to the next patient. If that is their level of training, knowledge, and insight, then indeed they may very well soon be replaced by AI. Now my question is, can my AI experience be replicated by the majority of the populace? It would seem the greatest tool in the hands of a fool is rendered worthless, but whose problem is that—the tool’s, or the user?
Alzaebo #447585 March 12, 2025 12:16 pm 3
Great points, and ChatGPT is also not limited by the beancounters in staffing- that is, you have 5-15 minutes for so many beds, regardless of whether a 90 year-old dementia patient has torn out his tubes, gotten out of bed and barfed on the floor, and is now out wandering around the hallway. Oh, and the charge nurse has already sent half the staff home, too.
ray #447540 March 12, 2025 10:20 am 8
Restricted by the body and physical world, humans have limited ‘free will’. Pure free will = madness. A mere baby knows enough to take comfort when swaddled.Even the goofy gnostics figgered out the spirit is trapped in the body.Angels have more ‘free will’ as they are not, unless incarnate, limited by the body.‘What is meant exactly by free will is never clear, but there is always the assumption that when people have choices, they choose based on their sense of what is the morally right or wrong option’Ah ha ha ha.‘[Conservatives] lack the will and ability to force people to agree with them, but they resort to a form of pleading. It is the slave mentality…’Weaklings and pussies. Good God look at the photos of the betas that write for Conservatism Inc. Soft faces, pre-catastrophe faces, no sand whatsoever in them. The men that elites and women choose for power. Where are the men that men choose?‘The ruling class of the West assumes they can engineer the cultural conditions in such a way that people will choose the “right” options.’Been the strategy in the mass-com age. And to large degree they’re right; after all, the institutions have been engineered and conquered. Partly by incentivizing the populace to destroy their own civilization via pursuit of personal advantage.
Trek #447512 March 12, 2025 8:28 am 7
I think “AI” will be useful, but yeah, it won’t be intelligence in the sense we mean it. A calculator is useful but it’s not intelligent. An LLM can be helpful but it’s not intelligent. Really the same thing is true of machine intelligence even if it gets great. It’s just grinding through a lot of grunt work without the slightest clue what it’s doing. By the way I tried the full glass of wine thing and sure enough it can’t do it!
Epaminondas #447513 March 12, 2025 8:31 am 2
Try to get your AI robot to write a joke. See what happens.
A Bad Man #447521 March 12, 2025 8:59 am 5
I just did. A.B.M.: Please write an original joke. AI: Sure thing! Here’s one for you: Why don’t skeletons fight each other? Because they don’t have the guts!
Ride-By Shooter #447533 March 12, 2025 9:43 am 3
Which “AI” system? I encountered the very same joke in a children’s book of jokes last summer. It was published in 2023 or 2022 iirc.
Compsci #447566 March 12, 2025 11:33 am 2
This would be a prime question to ask in return: “Could you please cite all references to the following “joke”: “Why don’t skeletons…”Here is the response from ChatGPT:Yes, the joke is widely known and commonly cited as a classic example of wordplay. It doesn’t have a single, definitive origin but has been featured in joke books, online humor sites, and general pop culture for years. It’s more of a traditional pun rather than an original creation by any specific person.So it would seem that a bit of prodding is in order as your AI overlooked the stipulation wrt “uniqueness”. This is not uncommon, however is this a problem with the AI so much as the user? I for one would never have accepted the original answer having lifetime of experience. Others, perhaps not so much. In there lies the danger of an ignorant use of a highly powerful tool—and it is a tool, not an “Oracle”!
KGB #447612 March 12, 2025 2:51 pm 2
So AI can replace Amy Schumer? Tell me more.
Compsci #447620 March 12, 2025 3:13 pm 0
No, quite the opposite in this example. I point out that the failure is perhaps not one of the AI LLM, but *also* of the original query as not being precise enough for the AI to understand and respond to adequately. In fact, although I don’t keep records, I estimate close to 50% of all my queries to ChatGPT must be restated to improve upon the original query response. That is not (in my opinion) the fault of the AI implementation, but the fault of the (inexperienced) user.
Maniac #447639 March 13, 2025 8:24 am 0
A paperclip could replace her.
Ride-By Shooter #447625 March 12, 2025 4:16 pm 0
ABM asked it to write an “original joke”. The request is succinct and unambiguous: Provide a joke which is new, fresh, the first instance of itself, and so on. Surely the model was trained on common, published definitions, in which case the request was correctly analyzed by the algo. Yet something went wrong.The problem here stems, I think, from the fact that most or all Western “AI” systems (and I admit an assumption about the perp’s origins) are programmed to shade the truth or to spit out lies. Is this not comically apt for this dying civilization? The West—the empire of lies and liars—has devised near its end a bunch of simulated intelligence systems which emulate the character flaw for which the West deserves most to be remembered for thousands of years after the extinction of its indigenous fools.
Marko #447514 March 12, 2025 8:38 am 8
The only thing that concerns me about AI will be the faked media. We need to figure out a quick way to discern that, like we can discern spam emails and fake social media accounts.
thezman #447515 March 12, 2025 8:42 am 31
That is my main concern. Faming audio is now possible to a degree that no one can tell the fake from real. Video is pretty close. This means the FBI will soon have new tools to frame innocent people.
Trek #447516 March 12, 2025 8:46 am 23
OK but now I can claim some old picture of me being a drunk jackass is totally fake!
Marko #447522 March 12, 2025 9:04 am 18
“No, fellow dissidents! That is not actually me at my bar mitzvah singing in drag!”
A Bad Man #447520 March 12, 2025 8:57 am 15
They already do, the ‘child pron found on computer’ gambit.
TempoNick #447523 March 12, 2025 9:04 am 5
I have some related concerns. What about the historic record? Old newspapers provide a treasure trove of knowledge and insights as to what happened in the past. There’s something about words being frozen on a piece of paper that speaks truth. Now, everything is virtual. It seems like it would be fairly easily to manipulate the historic record to say whatever you want.Then we have the usual suspects manipulating AI to give us the answers they want. Imagine AI always giving you answers that are pro-“our greatest ally,” for example. We may one day ask AI to write up something for us about the founding of the United States which then goes into long detail about how our founding fathers championed the Israeli Homeland or some such nonsense.You could say the same thing for global warming, green energy, or whatever propaganda they happen to want to push at any given time.And then there is the Terminator. What if that script wasn’t based in fiction? What if they do become self-aware, develop a defense mechanism and we have no way to shut them off? (I say this only partly in jest.)
Tars Tarkas #447542 March 12, 2025 10:23 am 5
“Old newspapers provide a treasure trove of knowledge and insights as to what happened in the past.”I think that would depend on how far you go back. Anything from the post-war era is likely just a bunch of propaganda. Though if you go back further, it does seem better. I recently read a 19th century report in a magazine (I’m pretty sure it was The Atlantic, July 1881) about the Ladies’ Deposit Corporation, a 19th century Ponzi scheme. It seemed to be free of propaganda. OTOH, a lot of articles written about the Titanic sinking were full of lies.At their best, newspapers are meant to inform the general public on topics of their interests. But they are rarely at their best and never in the modern era. Editorializing and narratives have always been a problem with the press.
TempoNick #447553 March 12, 2025 10:55 am 6
True, but I guess it depends on the subject matter as well. …Somewhat related: In the local paper today, the granddaughter of Paul Tibbets, the guy who flew the Enola Gay and nuked the Japs, is crying because Trump’s scrub of DEI in the Department of Defense flagged pictures of the Enola Gay and they are supposedly set for removal. Lefties just don’t get that Trump is trolling them in very large part.I’ve been trolling the lefties this morning by calling him a mass murderer, and complaining about all the harm he released on Mother Gaia not only by nuking the Japs but in his later role as CEO of the forerunner to Net Jets. Not only he helped provide an elitist luxury service to the gilded class, just think of the carbon footprint of all those private jets flying around. 😂😂😂😂😂I mentioned this because of how easy it is to change a narrative. All you need is control of the entire media echo chamber and you can turn Paul Tibbets into the new Hitler.
Zulu Juliet #447559 March 12, 2025 11:16 am 4
That Enola Gay story must have come from the Onion or Babylon Bee.
Mycale #447554 March 12, 2025 10:56 am 3
Well, I always thought part of analyzing history was putting the papers into context. If we know it is propaganda, we can process it through the lens. But I suspect that future “historians” will not even do that, they will rely on AI to do the analysis for them and spit something out. Of course, it will be what the people who wrote the AI want them to see. So, in other words, the days of historical research may be coming to an end, and we simply will not get revisionism. This is great for the regime!
Alzaebo #447563 March 12, 2025 11:23 am 4
You bet, remember the recent campaigning to confuse reality, til we “need” AI.gov to tell us what is real, if men can get pregnant, if the seas are rising, if the economy is robust and we can make shells for our allies…or to prove that the Puritans were racist killers who learned the Constitution from stone age Indian savages.
RealityRules #447534 March 12, 2025 9:46 am 8
There is no way for any actor to not have this ability now. The Regime of the West has forfeited its legitimacy for the reasons that all of us here know. This aspect of AI is going to lead to a permanent legitimacy crisis. Whose fake is real will be the constant debate? There is also the training set that a comment below points out.In any case, this is a great topic. In the end, clans with extremely deep, in-person in-real-life ties that have mechanisms to prove sincerity , loyalty, validity … … will emerge. One thing that encourages me, is that because the Regime declared us the enemy and smashed us up with the outsider, subgroups in our sphere are well down that path. There are advantages to being the first to be turned upon. At the same time, whoever controls the state will simply use all necessary force to enforce what is deemed real. Letitia James with generative AI.Would love an essay or two on this topic of AI smashing legitimacy and giving rise to vicious tyranny via generating fakes.
Compsci #447571 March 12, 2025 11:45 am 2
“This aspect of AI is going to lead to a permanent legitimacy crisis. Whose fake is real will be the constant debate? “This is along my thinking. So far—and I am no expert in the AI field—it seems that AI for general use is adapting the “Wikipedia” fallacy. That is to say, if you load enough information, from enough sources, the final outcome will be the truth!Wikipedia demonstrated the fallacy of this assumption and proved once again an even older adage: “garbage in, garbage out”. Perhaps the first axiom I learned in my first programming course 60 years ago!But again, is this an axiomatic result of the technology, or its implementation? Should this stop Ford Motor company from rolling out an AI for use by its dealerships?
Steve #447592 March 12, 2025 12:40 pm 4
“AI for general use is adapting the “Wikipedia” fallacy. That is to say, if you load enough information, from enough sources, the final outcome will be the truth!” AKA, the democracy fallacy.
Compsci #447623 March 12, 2025 3:22 pm 1
“AKA, the democracy fallacy.” Actually, that is a better way of putting it. My Wiki analogy really depends on or fails to acknowledge people (Wiki Editors) deliberately altering the data through various means to achieve a false narrative. I should have more plainly stated such. Your reference to “democracy” explicitly acknowledges the problem of falsity—it’s people.
RealityRules #447603 March 12, 2025 2:20 pm 2
Yes. This is another interesting point. AI is a handmaiden of fakery because it can imitate very well, and it will get even better.However, intelligence is a misnomer. It doesn’t even have knowledge. It is trained on massive datasets where all it is doing is predicting the next most likely word in a sequence over and over and over again. For factual information this works well. Use LLMs to summarize factual information or imitate some legal document that is fixed in format and it is really quite good. It can even paraphrase quite well. However, if the information it has synthesized in its next-most-likely-word neurons is false, it will regurgitate false information.This is exactly the model of Wikipedia. Those pages are highly editorialized and grow increasingly so. In fact, Wikipedia is a major source of LLM training data. Some in the dissident sphere and tech have stated that it is essential that we train our own models not on Wikipedia. In fact, one of Bidens big womyn in misinformation labeling was the overbutch of Wikipedia until she was dismissed. She oversaw the use of AI to generate Wikis and vice versa.This still always comes down to who says. Then there are the directives and selective editing of training data that go even further. The instances of Gemini’s total White erasure were programmed into the model and so it created a world where White people had never existed. That was willful and everyone at Google with a hand in that should be tried for cultural genocide because that is what that is. Our eradication from history was programmed/trained into the model.In any case, yes. LLMs are really just sophisticated information regurgitation machines. The ones that will be reliable will be the ones that places like Palantir use to synthesize battlefield information and allow non-programmers to reprogram equipment or suggest tactics … This is because they will be useful only if they are trained accurately.Garden variety document review lawyering can go the way of the dodo. Even though, the “Trust and Safety Committee”, makes handing this over to machines suspect and dangerous. Call centers can go the way of the dodo – at least the ones where pajeets and flips just read from a script and basically sound like an etiquette machine without any agency and knowledge. An AI agent can easily replace that and even have sophisticated agents route workflows and solve problems that those glorified answering services can’t.How this plays out will be interesting. Human trust networks will become more important than they ever have in all of human history as a result of this.
Tars Tarkas #447536 March 12, 2025 10:08 am 2
It still mispronounces words no native English speaker would mispronounce. There are a couple of youtube channels I sub to which uses text to speech which does this. Though I suppose it is possible they are just using a really crappy speech program.
TempoNick #447547 March 12, 2025 10:44 am 2
My Panasonic landline telephone is surprisingly good at announcing names. It does a good job with foreign names based on caller ID.
Alzaebo #447574 March 12, 2025 11:50 am 2
Just amazing how many voice actors- the people who do your radio jingles and video narrations- are being put out of work. Now their distinctive voices are simply sampled. Oh yeah, Ai mispronounces the schmidt out of common speech.
Mycale #447562 March 12, 2025 11:22 am 6
someone says “deepfake”, I hear “reasonable doubt.” I don’t see how the FBI could ever get a conviction when the other person could just say any audio/video evidence against them was faked. Wires and tapped phones are basically completely useless at that point.
Compsci #447582 March 12, 2025 12:12 pm 2
“don’t see how the FBI could ever get a conviction when the other person could just say any audio/video evidence against them was faked.”This is a problem, but unfortunately not a legal issue. It’s one of law and its current counterpart is typical “chain of evidence” challenges. The FBI will take the stand and testify how the audio/video was collected, then transferred from there all the way to the court. If necessary, a dozen witnesses will testify how they “handled” the evidence such that it was not tampered with. Seen this on a Grand Jury myself.The defense of course will challenge, but if the chain remains unbroken, the evidence is considered valid. The courts can work no other way. I even doubt if the chain of custody is not shown to be broken that the deep fake technology possibility will even be allowed to be brought up by the defense. No Strawmen allowed.
Tars Tarkas #447618 March 12, 2025 3:11 pm 1
They put wiretaps in lawyer’s offices. 40 years ago, everyone agreed a lawyer’s office was sacred. But they did it with Joey Merlino (IIRC, it was definitely an alleged mobster). You pretty much have no rights.The chain of evidence thing is a formality. Even if the court took the objections seriously, they would flip the burden and make you prove you didn’t say anything on the tapes. It will be a whole new category of 10k Dollar a day “experts” certified to testify in court that no signitures of any known AI or that definite signatures of AI could be found, depending on which side they are on.In reality, generally speaking, the cops employ these “Experts,” so they cost the state nothing, but if you really didn’t say it, you have to pay the “Expert” for his “Expert testimony” Many of these “Experts” for hire are double dipping academics getting paid both by their university and for the time on the case. Just one big grift.
Mycale #447527 March 12, 2025 9:29 am 11
LLM is well known for making stuff up. I don’t see how anyone can trust it. Even when it doesn’t make stuff up, it’s like a hypercharged version of Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is basically a CIA front. Google also spent a lot of money for access to Reddit, and Reddit is designed to produce a top-down social consensus (I think it’s a CIA front too). Put two and two together, our social engineers are training people to rely on whatever the LLM vomits out, and then they train the LLM to produce whatever they want people to believe. The LLM creates the reality of the regime before it spits it out to the person asking the questions.
Geoff #447558 March 12, 2025 11:12 am 3
One of Reddit’s greatest sins was its role in establishing the ranked upvote as a standard for internet forums. On paper it makes sense, but in practice it sucks. Every thread becomes a race to be the first poster and/or the terminally online kook with handle recognition, and then the discussion gets pulled by whoever gets the first upvote traction.Makes it very easy to manipulate for botfarms. I was shocked that there are people who make a living creating Reddit accounts and seasoning them to get past moderators before I knew about the prevalence of botfarms, but it makes perfect sense in that context.We’ve even seen it here since Zman implemented the update system. Almost every day, half the comments on the thread will be attached to whatever the first non-retarded comment to get posted, because people want their comment to be seen. It’s just human nature.Updoots to the left fellow Zedditors. Please donate to my gofundme to save my hecking pupperino!
Compsci #447584 March 12, 2025 12:14 pm 2
“Almost every day, half the comments on the thread will be attached to whatever the first non-retarded comment to get posted,…” Hey, I resemble that remark…good observation. 😉
Steve #447595 March 12, 2025 12:47 pm 1
“Every thread becomes a race to be the first poster and/or the terminally online kook with handle recognition, and then the discussion gets pulled by whoever gets the first upvote traction.” Yep. Regardless of the topic, a common theme to that dominant post here usually manifests by 10 or 11, Eastern Time. Anyone notice what it is? ETA: Today is a rare exception to the rule. So far, anyway.
Bloated Boomer #447633 March 13, 2025 4:55 am 0
“The first non-retarded comment to get posted” hahaha, ouch.
Bitter reactionary #447578 March 12, 2025 12:01 pm 5
With regard to free will, I would be more skeptical of the idea if individual people reacted to stimuli more consistently. Groups are way more predictable than single people. Groups will naturally default to the mean, like any statistically normal population. But on any given day I might alter some reactions, often even against my self interest, simply due to spite. There have been moments I was so annoyed over a petty disappointment in a matter of taste that I chose to take nothing rather than enjoy something perfectly adequate.Of course all animals have pre-programmed survival algorithms, as we would die off without them. The smartest is not smart enough to think through everything in real time and function efficiently. Those algos are largely common to our particular sub-species, since our needs are mostly identical. Therefore, to a large extent, we will seem like automatons. But this is because, luckily, most daily decisions aren’t hard or consequential. Just leave it to the algo, and daydream about something more interesting. And those dreams are were its easiest to see the individual.
Hemid #447594 March 12, 2025 12:47 pm 2
Will converted to data can never seem free. Willsconverted tosummabledata will appear wholly deterministic—or whatever the current_dweeb obfuscation of determinism-for-thee is, “Bayesian” or whatever (can they not pronounce Laplace?)—even if all those wills are individually wholly undetermined. There’s no way to check.Number is not descriptive. Counting is an imposition of extraneous qualities on what’s counted. Nerds, psychopaths, and monsters regard those qualities—calculability, convertibility, etc.—as real. Maybe they are. Probably not. They appear wherever they’reput.
Filthie #447552 March 12, 2025 10:54 am 5
Well it may not be an issue at all soon. I keep hearing about those 1000 qubit quantum computers… and it’s scaring the shite out of the tall foreheads. Apparently the thing is messing about in alternative time lines, and/or reversing the flow of time in ours, and/or messing about with our own reality. I wonder what a temporal unreality bomb would look like? And given the antics and monkey business in Ottawa and Washington… how’d you know one went off?
Jeffrey Zoar #447564 March 12, 2025 11:24 am 3
Is this why Dolly in Moonraker lost her braces?
Jeffrey Zoar #447541 March 12, 2025 10:20 am 5
When the muslims take over, what will become of the AI? I can sort of picture what a muslim dominated AI would look like, hypothetically, assuming they possessed the skill to program it and control it. But I don’t think it’s a given that they do. We could end up seeing a muslim dominated Europe still running on the baizuo white man’s AI. That seems like the most likely scenario. In which the new muslim masters need the AI in order to make basic services function, but the AI is still saying that best practices suggest giving your child puberty blockers at age 2 and things of that nature. Perhaps the Chinese could supply them with a more coherent AI with which they can replace whitey’s AI. But why would the Chinese care whether or not New Europe’s AI made sense or functioned well?
American Demography #447545 March 12, 2025 10:35 am 9
Americans always worrying about Europe being mastered by foreigners.Fortunately that would never happen in the US.
Jeffrey Zoar #447546 March 12, 2025 10:40 am 0
The difference I see is that no one particular group will take over or dominate AINO
TempoNick #447549 March 12, 2025 10:46 am 4
Maybe those iron curtain closed societies like Romania, Albania and North Korea had a point. Maybe it is best to cut yourself off from the rest of the world.
Alzaebo #447577 March 12, 2025 11:57 am 2
Now I know you’re joking, JZ.
Jeffrey Zoar #447580 March 12, 2025 12:04 pm 6
I assume you are referring to da jooz, who did take over, but their sun is setting and they know it. They’re so terrified by the prospect that they allied themselves with drumpf
TempoNick #447548 March 12, 2025 10:45 am 4
“muslim dominated AI” Saudi Arabia is our greatest ally?
Alzaebo #447579 March 12, 2025 12:02 pm 8
Good one! Look at European sex education for schoolkids. It’s always illustrated with brown men on top of and inside of white women, even in the graphic ‘anatomy’ bits. (To the point of dark P in a white V, and a brown baby growing inside white mommy’s tummy.)
Templar #447628 March 12, 2025 5:47 pm 2
We have a somewhat less graphic version of that over here in the Americas, where practically every product aimed at children will juxtapose photos/artwork of a black or brown boy and a white girl on the packaging.
RealityRules #447604 March 12, 2025 2:27 pm 2
There are some excellent scientists, computer scientists, engineers … … from the muslim world. They will be able to program and develop AI, just as they are doing with battlefield drones and technology.It is a cope to think we will be taken over by incompetents. No. We will be taken over period. This is why legal immigration and schemes like the Gold Card are existential threats to our future. The danger is not to be ruled by dumb asses, but to be ruled by aliens who can be competent or who can control a satrapy well enough. A good example is the billionaire who controls Haiti. He rules over ashes and what does he care. Btw, that is another case of EST.
Pozymandias #447605 March 12, 2025 2:28 pm 3
Inasmuch as the Islamic viewpoint is closer in most ways to reality, I would expect it to fare better at solving real world problems than the White Baizuo version. The same thing is probably true of a Christian fundamentalist one. You might get some weird answers if you asked it to interpret the geology of the Grand Canyon but, like the Islamic one, it would have no trouble telling you not to give your kid puberty blockers. I’ve speculated that a dissident AI would offer a definite advantage to its users that would be worth paying for. Corporations will happily force their “drone” employees to use one of the mainstream pozzed and woke AIs. They might want their executives using the dissident one though, even if the company publicly promotes woke garbage.
JaG #447509 March 12, 2025 8:10 am 5
Ah well. My best friend’s first marriage was with a woman who had a lot of rules and routines. The mantra was… “Rules are made to be broken.” It’s kinda deep.
The Infant Phenomenon #447530 March 12, 2025 9:37 am 4
“The choice is ours.” Delicious ending!
Ostei Kozelskii #447606 March 12, 2025 2:30 pm 3
I believe the reason AI makes many people uncomfortable is not so much that it suggests human beings are predictable, but rather that we are not special. It is either a truism or a conceit that human beings are uniquely intelligent, with creativity enfolded in intelligence. But if a machine can be both intelligent and creative, where does that leave mankind?What is the difference between a moist robot and a cognitive machine? AI transgresses mightily against our very conception of humanness.
Ede Wolf #447624 March 12, 2025 3:31 pm 2
What needs to be considered: even if there was no free will, that does not mean that human action would be predictable. Think about the stock market: all players claim to act rationally, yet nobody can predict anything. This is because it is a self-referential, chaotic system, where small changes in parameters can lead to wild swings in outcomes. Therefore, the only way to say how the system will behave is to live through it… Under this light, I’m not even sure if it is worth it pondering that question!
Bitter reactionary #447599 March 12, 2025 1:10 pm 2
Re the potential for what they gratuitously call AI, I see it being most effective as an advanced stat cruncher, dealing with concrete factual data. The effectiveness of the algo that can interpret x-ray results is an impressive example. It is not thinking, but it seems that way because it can do math so complex that the human brain would take multiple lifetimes of dedicated work to do the same. Sadly, in making this comparison, we forget the astounding amount of computational work, using who-knows-how-many advanced algos, across multiple dissimilar finctional modes, our brain is doing every moment.But, it isn’t ‘thinking’ and I see no reason to believe it ever will, since we still (so far as I’ve read up to this point) don’t really know what cognition actually is. How can you mathematically model what you can’t properly define?
Ostei Kozelskii #447621 March 12, 2025 3:19 pm 0
Computation is certainly part of intelligence, but only part. If AI’s abilities are limited to computation, then to even call it AI is a fallacy. However, I understand AI also has the ability to create. And if a machine can both compute and create then you are truly approaching genuine intelligence, IMO. But then there’s the matter of consciousness. And to truly think, consciousness is a prerequisite. But then what is consciousness? Could consciousness be a function of cognition? Vice versa?
Templar #447629 March 12, 2025 6:02 pm 0
I understand AI also has the ability to create. Unprompted and undirected by a human user?
Ostei Kozelskii #447726 March 13, 2025 10:45 am 0
I really don’t know enough about AI to say.
William Quick #447596 March 12, 2025 12:55 pm 2
“…but there is always the assumption that when people have choices…” Yeah, that is the literal meaning of free will. That youdohave choices.
Ostei Kozelskii #447622 March 12, 2025 3:21 pm 1
Correct. The very existence of choice mandates the ability to choose.
Arshad Ali #447531 March 12, 2025 9:43 am 2
“The good news is that AI is not very smart and is unlikely to become a genuine artificial intelligence”I don’t know about that. I know I’m not very smart. When I pay a neural network chess engine, I have no way of beating it. No human chess player does. So what is “very smart?” We’re probably pretty close to an “artificial general intelligence”, which can learn by itself in the same manner that a neural network can learn Go and chess by itself in a matter of hours. I think we need a clearer definition of what “very smart” means, both among humans, and compared to the evolving neural networks that are now being created with troubling speed.
Alzaebo #447581 March 12, 2025 12:10 pm 2
Ooh boy. Just like humans, it won’t be able to tell if it’s been hijacked or reprogrammed.
Ostei Kozelskii #447619 March 12, 2025 3:12 pm 1
What is intelligence? And what role, if any, does consciousness play in intelligence? There are no certain answers to those questions. And until there are, we’re taking a crap in the wind on the matter of whether or not AI is truly intelligent let alone “very” intelligent.
Danny #447613 March 12, 2025 2:51 pm 1
I can sit in my chair all day or I can go out for a long walk. Hmmm … that appears to indicate a choice. But it is not so. If I sit in the chair all day it is because something has prevented me from going out. And vice versa. Things we do or do not are a result of a conflicting force we know nothing about.
Dutchboy #447608 March 12, 2025 2:35 pm 1
Explaining to people why something is right and should be public policy is reasonable, since most people have a sense of right and wrong and can be appealed to on that basis. It is also reasonable to explain that, since such-and-such a policy is right, we’re going to do it whether you like it or not. Who says A, must say B.
Ben the Layabout #447569 March 12, 2025 11:44 am 1
Nietzsche is unequivocally anti-free will. He says it can be disproved but to the best of my knowledge he provides no such proof. In many other passages he argues that man is dominated by primitive instincts the unconscious etc. For example that a criminal should not be considered “guilty” of a crime, because that presumes that he could have chosen to do right or wrong, but that may not be the case.Perhaps a middle position is closer to the real situation. One of several identified errors of philosophers is the insistence on antithesis of values. Some might argue either Free Will exist or it does not. Ah, but is it really that simple? Who says it must be all or nothing? Unless I misread Z this morning he even implicitly agrees as much. We are free to choose in some situations, forced to choose in others and perhaps if we refuse to choose a default will be selected for us even if that choice is “none of the above”.Even that common chocolate versus vanilla example has a lot of implicit assumptions. We need to know that a choice is even available. We need to know what those choices are, chocolate and vanilla. Is there an option to refuse to choose? If we do not make a choice will a choice be forced upon us? And finally it’s worth mentioning that we don’t have the power to choose to add strawberry or other flavors to that menu. That last power is reserved to a higher power. That humans lack the power to be God has never stopped them from saying “Thou shalt” apparently expecting reality to reconfigure itself to their wishes.
Arshad Ali #447601 March 12, 2025 1:29 pm 1
Nietzsche’s position makes sense: there’s the illusion of choice but we’re programmed to make certain choices or at least to heavily prefer certain choices.
URL #448017 March 16, 2025 3:54 am 0
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Templar #447576 March 12, 2025 11:52 am 0
The choice is ours. I see what you did there.


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