The End Of Human War

Recently, Russian troops approached what they assumed to be a bunker with a Ukrainian machine guy crew. They thought this because they took machine gun fire from the location. They responded with mortars and drones, but when they approached again, they came under heavy machine gun fire. The Russians then struck the spot with thermobaric munitions, but the Ukrainian machine guy kept firing. Eventually, they were able to outflank the sight and destroy it.

What they found upon closer inspection was not a heavily armored machine gun nest full of dead Ukrainians, but instead it was a robotic machine gun. The gun itself was in a concrete bunker, but it was operated by computer. It is unclear if it was operated remotely or if the accompanying laptop was autonomous. There are two versions of the story on Russian channels. Regardless, this autonomous machine gun nest is the latest example of how cheap electronics are revolutionizing the battlefield.

The Russians think that this autonomous machine gun was a prototype created by a NATO country and provided to the Ukrainians for testing. That is possible as the war in Ukraine has become a giant military testing center. NATO contractors are using the conflict as an opportunity to evaluate new and old technology. The Russians, of course, have also been experimenting with new ideas. This war will be viewed in time as the first war of the autonomous munitions era.

One reason for the revolution on the battlefield is the proliferation of cheap electronics that can solve battlefield problems. A five-hundred-dollar quadcopter can be rigged up to drop grenades on enemy trenches. The user can be a girl or even a wounded soldier who operates it from the rear. It also allows for a better understanding of the enemy’s defensive positions and their troop strength. Instead of artillery barrages, men in trenches now attack one another with cheap drones.

There is another innovation that has turned up in Ukraine. Both sides have now started to deploy small ground-based drones. They look like the RC cars you would give to a child, except these are packed with explosives. The Ukrainians have been driving these into Russian trenches and then driving them near troops and supplies. The Russians, on the other hand, are programming their ground drones to operate without an operator and simply search out targets on their own.

This is the big leap forward that has occurred recently. The Russians have taken the next step in remote weapons. They now have drones that operate on their own, programmed to find a target and then attack it. More important, they are now equipping these drones with night vision cameras. These drones are flying around and crawling around the battlespace at night hunting for Ukrainian equipment. Now, there is no hiding from the robot warriors in the sky and on the ground.

What the Ukraine war has ushered in is not so much the rise of the robot warrior but the rise of the cheap robot warrior. The point of these innovations is to change the math of the battlefield by weaponizing cheap electronics. If a two-thousand-dollar drone can take out multimillion dollar armor and artillery, the material advantage of the side with the armor and artillery flips on its head. All of a sudden one side sees its cost spiraling upward in the face of cheap counter measures.

This is another revolution on the Ukraine battlefield. The Russians have always been the best at electronic warfare. Their defensive strategy has always assumed they would be attacked by high-tech NATO warplanes and missiles. In Ukraine, they have had to quickly adapt these concepts to the very real threat of NATO cruise missiles, ATACM missiles and guided artillery. The last two years the Russians have had to race to figure out how to defeat these advanced weapons systems.

The result is the Russians have slowly revolutionized electronic warfare. The vaunted Storm Shadow missile from Britain had some initial success, penetrating Russian air defenses and hitting targets in the rear. At some point, the Russians solved this puzzle like they solved the HIMARS problems, and these missiles now fly into the ground soon after they are launched. The Russians are doing this with relatively cheap, ground-based mobile electronic warfare systems.

Notice a word that keeps turning up. The word “cheap.” This has been the main driver of innovation on the Ukraine battlefield. NATO has outspent the Russians close to ten-to-one in terms of weapons and technology. The United States has given to Ukraine in two years about ten times what Russia spends annually. In addition, the West has provided mountains of technical and intelligence support. There is simply no way Russia could match NATO dollar for dollar.

In fairness, the Ukrainians have faced a similar problem. Much of what has been supplied to them has not been suited for the task. America war planners have always assumed they would be facing an under-armed opponent trying to defend perfectly flat ground on a clear sunny day. That is not Ukraine. As a result, the Ukrainians have had to do like the Russians and improvise on the cheap. The Ukrainians are probably the second best in the world using cheap drones.

Probably the most terrifying development to date is the one just unleashed. The Russians have reengineered the Iranian drones they have been using so they are stealthy, autonomous, and work together. They recently unleashed a swarm of these drones that could avoid Ukrainian radar, seek out targets on their own and coordinate with the rest of the drone swarm. These drones cost maybe twenty thousand a piece and can take out expensive things like Patriot missile systems.

The West will no doubt learn and adapt to what is happening in Ukraine and begin to create autonomous robot weapons. Artificial intelligence is mostly hype at the moment, but automated decision making within the narrow parameters of the battlefield is now a reality, so the day of the killer robot is upon us. It is not going to take long before weapons production moves from multimillion dollar tanks that are no match for a flying killer robot to building better killer robots.

As was the case in the Great War when military technology lapped the thinking of the men tasked with using the technology, the result in Ukraine has been a weird form of trench warfare. The Ukrainians built massive, fortified locations to use as strong points along the line of contact. The Russians built complex defensive structures designed to minimize their losses while attacking Ukrainian positions. The result has been a slow grinding war of attrition now fought with robots.

That brings up another change brought about by technology. The NATO form of war with big arrow offenses and combined arms warfare is now obsolete. That was made clear in the Ukrainian offensive last summer. A NATO trained and equipped army was sent into to bash through the Russian lines using NATO tactics and it was instead blown to pieces in cheap, high-tech minefields. Remotely placed and activated mines are now a dominant feature of the modern battlefield.

What is coming out of the Ukraine war are big questions. If big expensive items like tanks and fighting vehicles are being turned to death traps by cheap robots, then what is the point of building them? Similarly, if manned aircraft are made obsolete by air defense systems and drones, what is the point of building them? What is the point of having an aircraft carrier if aircraft are no longer viable? Trillions of weapons systems are now becoming white elephants thanks to cheap robots.

It is always assumed that the desire to kill our fellow man will lead us to overcome these technological cul-de-sacs. The shield blocked the spear, but waves of cheap arrows defeated the shield wall. The machine gun forced men into trenches, but the tank forced the men back out of the trenches. It is assumed that the robots will force some new counter so that rich men and can get richer by sending poor men to their deaths, but there has to be some end point to this process.

More important, every weapons systems has behind it an army of men who believe in fighting war a certain way. The NATO trained Ukraine army, that was obliterated by the Russians this summer, was the result of old men determined to stick with the old ways of fighting a war, despite battlefield reality. On the other hand, the defeat of weapons systems leads to the defeat of the ideas behind them. Right now, the American military’s notions of war are dying on the Ukrainian steppe.

It is hard to say if we have reached the end point, but the end of manned war seems to be coming into focus. Robots will only get cheaper and smarter. Soon, sending men to clear a building will seem as antiquated as the cavalry charge. The skies will be full of robotic killing machines and the ground crawling with their brothers, hooked together by electronic communications and artificial intelligence. The automation revolution will mean the end of war, at least for the human participants.


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Comments (Historical)

The comments below were originally posted to thezman.com.

213 Comments

Bilejones #379721 November 29, 2023 12:28 pm 0
6 reasons the Air Force wants to get its hands on Russian DNAOn Jul. 19, 2017, the Air Force posted a request on FedBizOpps, the U.S. government’s contracting opportunities site, looking for price quotes on how much it would cost to acquire 12 each fresh frozen normal human Synovial tissue and Ribonucleic Acid (RNA) samples. So why do they want Russian DNA? https://www.wearethemighty.com/intel/air-force-wants-russian-dna/
Moran ya Simba #379972 December 1, 2023 1:15 am 0
This national level dna snooping is super creepy.
Hokkoda #379630 November 29, 2023 12:00 am 0
To me, the interesting thing about this is how utterly meaningless war becomes. I mean we literally have TV shows called “Robot Wars”.If it’s cheap, there’s no money in it. If all you’re doing is building tiny robots to destroy other tiny robots, what exactly is the purpose of a war? It’s like China vs Taiwan. To reclaim Taiwan, China would have to destroy Taiwan. That would create global economic havoc that serves no purpose and would probably destabilize China’s economy. The Ukraine war has accomplished…NOTHING!…except it has destabilized the economies of everyone involved and killed hundreds of thousands of human capital. Literally everyone is worse off.The robots make it all the more pointless. I think that’s where this is all heading. I’m still trying to think of a good metaphor for it. Star Trek TOS contemplated a robot war in “A Taste of Armageddon”. Instead of robots fighting robots, the societies took the next logical step: computer simulations. People “killed” in the simulations were disintegrated in execution chambers.I’ve always felt like Trump figured this problem out with his bilateral peace treaties in the Middle East and has recognition that there’s no point to bringing Ukraine into NATO and precipitating a war. IOW, let’s all just put this bullshit aside and get rich together?There’s a ridiculous pointlessness to robots fighting robots.
b #379631 November 29, 2023 12:17 am 0
War is a racket. Think of the GDP for Bankers!!!
Bilejones #379722 November 29, 2023 12:30 pm 0
“except it has destabilized the economies of everyone involved ” Russia is doing just fine.
Hokkoda #379770 November 29, 2023 3:42 pm 0
Russia’s economy is being propped up by US energy policy. Like an egg balanced on an upside down bowl, just because it isn’t currently moving doesn’t mean it is in a stable position.
thezman #379772 November 29, 2023 3:57 pm 0
This is not true. The Russian economy is propped up by sound monetary policy, sensible trade relations and high demand for its agricultural, energy and manufactured products.
miforest #379621 November 28, 2023 9:38 pm 0
I think the kraine is just a proof of concept . at some point our billionaire overloards will go into their hawaiiain and new zealand bunkers and turn their autonomus pets loose to exterminate those they consider ants at their picnic . like this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weOnE1Ecd5I
Götterdamn-it-all #379633 November 29, 2023 9:12 am 0
Well, that was quite an uplifting video, miforest.
miforest #379734 November 29, 2023 1:29 pm 0
I know , sorry but those in charge are evil beyond most peoples comprehention .
Panzernutter #379618 November 28, 2023 8:42 pm 0
Anyone hear anything about Patrick Lancaster lately ?
vxxc #379612 November 28, 2023 6:45 pm 0
“From CT to CP – from Counter Terrorism to Counter Populism.”How military and intelligence tactics were used by State Department contractors to influence 2020.Kindly left online.With their own documents, the CTI morons left online their domestic intelligence operations during covid and 2020 politics.We’re already fighting sub humans, with marketing degrees, playing at spies, playing at KGB. “The Dumb and The Restless.”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPAGaMi6bjg
Hemid #379632 November 29, 2023 12:25 am 0
This is one of those things that if there are still “conspiracy theorists” in fifty years, they’ll cite these docs over and over and over again, nobody will ever go back and look at them, and official history will never change.My personal version of this is pointing back at the Meese Commission Report (as it’s known) on pornography. There’s a story that from the ’80s through the Clinton years, “conservative Christians” were culturally ascendant and went on a censorship campaign against rock and rap, video games, underground comic books, etc. This isn’t true at all, and if you look at the actual documents it’s obvious that the Religious Right™ was entirely a left-feminist phenomenon, a sockpuppet/useful idiot of Women Against Pornography, Dworkin/MacKinnon, etc. Can anyone be convinced of this? No. The story is established.Similarly, the story of Trump/populism/etc. is about “Russian influence”—and it will *never* be otherwise.Who killed Kennedy? “Dallas”—the right-wing anti-civil-rights climate of the ’60s south.Etc.It’s not the first “narrative” but the first *lie* that always wins.We have no idea what actually happened in our past.
Zaphod #379610 November 28, 2023 6:36 pm 0
Pure Robots vs. Robots out there on some battlefield would be just another iteration of economic warfare assuming a long peer conflict stalemate.So the incentive to do an end run around automated strongpoints and the heavily defended automated weapons fabs and go directly for upstream civilian infrastructure to put the hurt on the opposing population would be clear… but much essential infrastructure could conceivably be defended by swarms of cheap automation.But could you put a defensive swarm around every *Civilian*? I think not. Inexorable logic –> it ain’t gonna be nice.And with ‘Cheap’… well our Bug Men Overlords like to use the euphemism Non State Actors… All the fun of the fair!(Probably about as useful predictions as the late Victorians and Edwardians fantasizing about Land Battleships and Martian Tripods.)
Sgt Pedantry #379587 November 28, 2023 3:26 pm 0
You will want to have someone install plank flooring for you. Before that, you will want to have your plumbing inspected. You have a book to finish and do not have the time to be screwing around either on hands and knees or keeping the road warm between Z Estates and Home Depot.
Intelligent Dasein #379582 November 28, 2023 3:12 pm 0
Today’s essay is not wrong given the limited context of the war in Ukraine, but it’s too strong for a universal description. Nothing is everpermanentlyobsolete; it’s just temporarily obsoletemoduloa given set of countermeasures. It is certainly not true that human warfare is dead or ever will be dead. In fact, one of things that could overwhelm a drone swarm is an even larger human swarm, which nations may resort to if they become desperate enough. Even the “cavalry charge” has been revived lately, with some success, by Hamas against Israeli armor. At any rate, the human being is the sole center and source of the will to fight, and it is the human being who must ultimately be met and defeated. Technology, everywhere and always, is only a means.One of the necessary caveats that comes with using this war as a textbook case for the “developing battlefield” is that the oddities of the Ukrainian situation have greatly influenced how the war has developed and aren’t necessarily applicable everywhere else. The Russians, for example, have taken a comparatively light hand when it comes to many traditional battlefield objectives: They have not engaged in mass infrastructure attacks except against electric substations; they have not bothered to interdict the arrival of enemy weapons into the battlespace; they have not been very committed to taking and holding large amounts of territory; and, most bizarrely, the haven’t even attempted the decapitation of the regime in Kiev. On the other side of the ledger, NATO has made no attempt to establish air superiority or to reenforce Ukraine with boots on the ground.As a result, this “war of attrition” that everyone now talks about is more of a deliberate choice than it is an organic development. I certainly understand the reasons advanced in defense of that choice, and I agree with many of them. In fact, I was one of the first people making those kinds of arguments back when everyone else was ridiculing Russia for their slow progress. However, unlike some other commenters, I am not unaware of certain ambiguities and drawbacks in that position. There is something unsatisfactory about the “war of attrition” model that must not be repressed. If it is not voiced, it makes itself felt in the form of cognitive dissonance, like of the sort which always has Alexander Mercouris speaking of a real Russian invasion in another six months.One of the most important questions about the conduct of the war, and one that few people on the pro-Russian side are mentioning, is the prolongation of the human suffering. We know that Russia has the means to destroy Ukraine any time it wants to; but therefore, in the interim, every additional Russian death and Ukrainian death is morally attributable to Russia’s delaying the victory. One has to ask what objective is being achieved by this, and the only possible answer I see is that it allows Russia more opportunity to grind down and destroy the Ukrainian military.Let’s pause here a moment to note the irony of that answer: The war of attrition, the next-generation war fought with drones and AI that was supposed to end war between humans and to be so sparing of soldiers’ lives, has actually resulted inmaximalhuman carnage. Whatever the intended effect of this style of warfare, casualty minimization has not been the real-world outcome, which at least raises the possibility that this was never the goal in the first place. Another problem with this line of thinking is that the strategy’s success depends upon Ukraine’s willingness to keep pouring ever more men and machinery into the Russian meatgrinder, which (admittedly) they have strangely continued to do. Ukraine’s behavior here is more difficult to explain, but the usual answer is that Ukraine is fighting a PR battle and therefore must continue to mount one offensive after another for appearances’ sake, no matter how militarily hopeless the situation is. Russia, in turn, has been thought to back its more aggressive tactics so as not to provoke a proportionate response from NATO.But that is where the argument starts to break down. Is a proportionate response by NATO more likely as long as it looks like Ukraine is holding its own, or after it looks certain to lose? The closer Russia gets to winning the “war of attrition,” the more likely the chances are of a dangerous NATO escalation. I submit that Russia knows this, and that this is the real purpose behind the Surovikin Line and the hundreds of thousands of trained recruits in theater. NATO also knows this—they must have known that Ukraine never really stood a chance against the Russian military without fullkineticsupport from its own soldiery. If that ever happened, the war would have far-reaching and devastating effects, even if it didn’t go nuclear. The one thing that could entirely prevent this possibility is if there is no longer a Ukrainian state or a Ukrainian government to assist.In short, every day that Russia prolongs the war, the more pain and suffering occur, and the closer becomes the possibility of a horrible conflict. There is a weird circularity to all of this that eventually must be broken. At some point the calculus will change. At some point we will have to say that it would have been cheaper in blood and treasure just to sack Kiev and occupy Ukraine than it was to continue the “war of attrition.”Since this war is basically a result of the refusal of both sides to put all their cards on the table, I doubt that it is really a template for the future of human conflict. We will only see the next chapter of human conflict when somebodydoesput their cards on the table.
NateG #379573 November 28, 2023 2:50 pm 0
Good article, Z-man. Interesting that the Russian army has emerged as the toughest military in the world, despite all the criticism from the West. The Israeli military right now is looking terribly overrated.
Jeffrey Zoar #379598 November 28, 2023 4:33 pm 0
There is not a single western military that isn’t hopelessly pozzed. Every single one of them is casualty averse to the point of uselessness.
c matt #379600 November 28, 2023 4:41 pm 0
The US is casualty averse because it hasn’t been involved in an existential war since the War of Northern Aggression.
miforest #379617 November 28, 2023 7:59 pm 0
i don’t think the us military is at all casualty averse. they are not bothered by the west virbginia hillbilly and texas farm boys getting IED in absurdistan for decades at a time .
Michael #379781 November 29, 2023 5:01 pm 0
But US military performance and tactics in Iraq DO tell a story of a risk averse policy. 130k troops, max, to pacify a nation of millions?
miforest #379918 November 30, 2023 1:33 pm 0
destroying a country of millions and killing a million civilians in a country that in no way threatened our country while killing tens of thousands of our soldiers and and getting the arms and legs blown off another hundred thousand or so does not exactly scream “reapect for human life” to me. so what did we get for the trillions spent and blood shed , hannity?
pantouf #379571 November 28, 2023 2:48 pm 0
“… If big expensive items like tanks and fighting vehicles are being turned to death traps by cheap robots, then what is the point of building them? Similarly, if manned aircraft are made obsolete by air defense systems and drones, what is the point of building them? What is the point of having an aircraft carrier if aircraft are no longer viable? Trillions of weapons systems are now becoming white elephants thanks to cheap robots.”You can bet the boys in the MIC are pooping their pants over this.Andrei Martyanov and others have been saying this exact thing for ages now.The MIC and their Pentagon stooges are likely thrilled the spotlight has shifted from their Ukraine disaster to Gaza. But then there are all those aircraft carriers cruising offshore. And the Iranians are supposed to now have missiles that will sink them nicely. Even Hezbollah may have this capability, according to some.Oh what a delicious irony if the MIC starts using all its considerable influence to push for peace–or at least to get all American-made equipment removed as far as possible from potential harm. Because it is bad for business when customers see your gear is junk, or taxpayers see those big boats going down glug-glug and finally understand they are paying for sea-going dinosaurs.Patriot batteries have been useless.And where is the F35 hangar queen in all this fighting?That’s right.
Felix Krull #379547 November 28, 2023 1:29 pm 0
In Renaissance Italy, private contractors – condottori – had honed mobile warfare down to an art, resting on the doctrine that with proper maneuvering, a war could be won without a single shot being fired: you put the enemy in a so disadvantageous tactical position that he realized the battle was lost and surrendered. Armies could maneuver in the field for months on end without making contact, each one dodging each other, looking for that definite advantage.Losses in such warfare were minimal, but it relied on highly trained mounted knights, crossbowmen and arquebusiers, and, unsurprisingly, it cost their city state employers absolute fortunes to have these mercenaries lounging around the taverns, polishing their gold-inlaid armor and their jeweled sword hilts, showing off their silk stockings to the the tavern wenches.Then, Francis I figured out that you could mass produce cheap flintlock muskets, give a bunch of peasant boys three months’ training, line them up in long rows, invade Italy, massacre everything you encountered with massed musket fire, march on Rome, and loot the Vatican.And that was the end of the condottori.
Pasaran #379558 November 28, 2023 1:55 pm 0
François Ier, looting the Vatican?? You’re confusing with the emperor Charles Quint.
Felix Krull #379562 November 28, 2023 1:59 pm 0
I am? Hmm… Indeed.
c matt #379599 November 28, 2023 4:38 pm 0
Unless he is referring to the current Francis looting the Vatican.
pantouf #379572 November 28, 2023 2:50 pm 0
Ditto the samurai.
miforest #379545 November 28, 2023 1:24 pm 0
a ukrainian tv station “accidentally ” put up a real casualty number for the kranian forces killed or captured . it was a staggering 1.1 million. given that wounded is usuall y about 3 time KIA, that means 4 million ukrainian men and Women have been killed off or maimed in the kagn clans latest project . given that many of the wounded are permanently disabled , it’s clear that this project to genocide the ukrainians was sucessful. it should be called holodomore II .https://bigcountryexpat.com/index.php/2023/11/27/an-abrams-in-the-wild-and-krainian-kasualties-leaked/
Pasaran #379559 November 28, 2023 1:57 pm 0
That’s obviously a fake news. Those who think they are exclusive property of the West are naive.
miforest #379577 November 28, 2023 3:04 pm 0
have you seen the pictures of the latest ukrainian recruits? its all men who are OLD , like 50’s 60’s old . the russians have been posting pictures of trenches full of dead ukrainian WOMEN. they are drafting women for the front lines . if you read any media from any neutral country the reporting all lines up . only the media in the west, the proppaganda corp for the MIC , has anything else out there .So back to watching hanity for you!
Moran ya Simba #379544 November 28, 2023 1:24 pm 0
A new age weapons system that is underperforming so far, at least in Ukraine, is lasers and their directed energy cousins.EMP is a logical thing to look at to defend against swarms of small drones. So far haven’t heard much about that. And it has been suggested that weapons grade lasers would flip the advantage that areal platforms have against ground platforms. Since at least WW2 a plane had the edge over a tank. But as anyone who has ever used a laser pointer knows hitting with a light beam is far easier. Since it is easier to hide on the ground than in the sky, this should give a ground laser the edge in a duel with an airborne one. But again no signs of that on any battlefield I know of
Moran ya Simba #379546 November 28, 2023 1:26 pm 0
*Aerial platforms 😁😁
Penitent Man #379579 November 28, 2023 3:08 pm 0
Is it possible to create a sub-atomic level explosion that will create a disabling EMP? I’ve seen a video of a man portable electronic “gun” that disables a single drone by interrupting its signal from a controller.If drones become auto-dictating to avoid the need for a controller’s signal, I imagine they become an area-denial device similar to artillery deployed mines. They won’t be intelligent enough to distinguish friend from foe. I suppose each man in the friendly force could be equipped with a portable transmitter to identify himself as a friendly (similar to aircraft or “glint tape” used in the Gulf War). That device would have to be encrypted and jumping frequency like the Singars radio.I suppose self-dictating drones could be swarmed ahead of an advance, killing anything they can in the route of advance and then detonating or going inert at a proscribed time as ground forces advance behind them. In effect becoming the rolling curtain fire used in both World Wars.I recently watched an air show in Canada where masses of drones were used to create massive patterns and images in the air. It got me thinking how casting a wide net over a battlefield or even peacetime surveillance of a city wouldn’t be that hard. Simply putting thousands of cameras in the sky would be a game changer. Rotating drones in turns to recharge would enable constant surveillance.It boggles the mind, and that’s not even considering what nasty killing/maiming/destroying nastiness developers will incorporate into future drones.I think myself a decent person and I can still imagine some of these nightmare scenarios. What horrors are being cooked up in the minds of immoral people whose job it is to bring this stuff into existence? Terrifying.
Moran ya Simba #379588 November 28, 2023 3:30 pm 0
I don’t know. I saw a documentary once that said the Russians had fooled around with nuxlear propellants for hand weapons and the like. It was supposedly based on another element, not plutonium or uranium. But this could have been poorly researched nonsense. What seems very likely is that there is great interest in super powerful EMP that is no nuclear and somewhat portable
Apex Predator #379589 November 28, 2023 3:30 pm 0
Lasers are very complex and very finicky thereby defeating the purpose of “cheap & effective” countermeasures. They are high dollar, high tech, high maintenance, and work only under specific conditions.EMP weapons are sci-fi still. Directed EMP blasts are not really a thing yet. Once you can focus EMP energy you have a game changer but who knows when that will be? The only current reliable EMP generation is a by product of FISSION so… yeah, not practical. You can create very small EMP bursts but at that point you may as well just ram a drone with another drone using kinetic impact energy. WAY cheaper and more effective.
rasqball #379601 November 28, 2023 4:42 pm 0
At the advent of drone, technology more than a decade ago, some friends and I posited training (conditioning from the egg) birds to do kinetic assault.No need for anything exotic: a gull, a goose…
Moran ya Simba #379627 November 28, 2023 10:59 pm 0
Boeing has been testing non nuclear EMP but not sure how that’s going. As for lasers they are definitely har to scale up but I still think they’ll find uses for them. I really like the idea of geese learning to knock out drones lol
right2remainviolent #379542 November 28, 2023 1:19 pm 0
“Second Variety” by Philip K. Dick, is what comes to mind as the end state of drone warfare.
rasqball #379603 November 28, 2023 4:43 pm 0
I was thinking sameBut could not recall title;Hat’s off to you, chum!
Ahabs Discount Harpoons #379817 November 30, 2023 9:41 am 0
Good ‘ol PKD. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32032/32032-h/32032-h.htm
Karl Horst Germany #379521 November 28, 2023 12:45 pm 0
One thing Western planners are oblivious to is the creative minds of the East, specifically Eastern Europeans who have learned to make do with spit, dirt and bailing wire.During the cold war days, East Germans had lost access to West German tools, machines, tractors, cars or anything else that required maintenance and parts. To get around this, they quickly figured out a brake line from a 1964 Mercedes worked perfectly well as a fuel line for a RS01 tractor. These are our version of your southern Rednecks or the Canadians’ Red Green.We’ve all seen the YouTube videos of some poor East European farmer with a missing wheel on his wagon who has strapped a log on that side. While not technically elegant, it makes a point about what people who have very little can accomplish in problem solving.We all know how effective IEDs were against US military. They were built by illiterate people who live in mud huts with no toilets or running water. Crude as they might have been, their ingenuity and effectiveness made US troops think twice about kicking in a door.So if you think for a minute these people are impressed or intimidated by Americas trillion dollar air craft carriers or their billion dollar fighter jets, guess again.
Jack Dobson #379543 November 28, 2023 1:23 pm 0
Yes. The two big takeaways from this madness are (a) the United States no longer can destroy a somewhat viable economy with sanctions and (b) wars can be fought successfully on the cheap. Both of those are bad news for the GAE. They were somewhat understood previously but the Ukraine has put paid to any residual doubts.
James Proverbs #379597 November 28, 2023 4:20 pm 0
I once saw a hippy friend successfully incorporate a Christmas Cookie tin into the engine of his VW bus.Not sure if it’s true but I had always heard that part of the design impetus for the “people’s wagon” was to allow the possibility of such inventive repairs.I recall seeing some books/manuals among the Dead/VW Bus crowd that were specifically addressed to the topic.
Chazz #379510 November 28, 2023 12:25 pm 0
The girl we now have as our Chief of Naval Operations has no doubt been convinced that her Eisenhower carrier battle group located in the Persian gulf poses a big threat to any Washington designated bad people in the area. However, should it transpire that Mr. Kinzhal and a dozen of his compatriots come calling at Mach 5 from various directions at the same time on a dark and stormy night, I expect the poor woman’s cherished narrative will be much tarnished. The cost ratio of such a caper probably runs at least six orders of magnitude in favor of the Kinzhals.
Moran ya Simba #379526 November 28, 2023 12:50 pm 0
Big, expensive manned platforms are dinosaurs
Danny #379508 November 28, 2023 12:20 pm 0
“He, general or mere captain, who employs every one in the storming of a position can be sure of seeing it retaken by an organized counterattack of four men and a corporal.” — Ardant du Picq Just a quote I believe to be somehow true.
Ostei Kozelskii #379553 November 28, 2023 1:47 pm 0
“And here we have a particularly smart Siamese fighting fish. He waits and watches as the other two exhaust themselves in battle, and then, like SPECTRE, he strikes!” “I find the allegory amusing, Number One.” Ernst Stavro Blofeld and Rosa Klebb in From Russia with Love
Moran ya Simba #379554 November 28, 2023 1:48 pm 0
Never use your reserves in attack. Use all your reserves in defense
Tars Tarkas #379506 November 28, 2023 12:14 pm 0
I don’t know. There sure are a lot of dead people for the end of human wars. Supposedly the number of MIA/KIA was broadcast on a Ukrainian news network and is over a million (1,126,652).As for air power, it’s been many decades since the last war where both sides were advanced Western nations. It could be that they were obsolete decades ago.Up until Feb of 2022, everyone was talking about 4th generation warfare and how the old way was obsolete and that we would never again see the “2nd generation” warfare. That the role of the military was fundamentally and permanently changed. That the new way of war was going to be non-uniformed civilians using guerilla tactics using only small arms and IEDs. Yet, here we are with advanced mechanized military units fighting other advanced mechanized units and complete with trench warfare. Really, who around here imagined in 2020 that trench foot was going to make a comeback.
pyrrhus #379512 November 28, 2023 12:29 pm 0
Kurt Vonnegut saw all this in his early novel Player Piano…where the troops are only there to serve the robots and keep them plugged in properly….
pyrrhus #379513 November 28, 2023 12:31 pm 0
That was 70 years ago…Only a few years after the firebombing of Dresden that he immortalized in Slaughterhouse Five…
Jeffrey Zoar #379518 November 28, 2023 12:42 pm 0
The propaganda machine must be going into total clampdown mode over that casualty stat. It cannot be allowed to propagate. Normie is unlikely to ever hear it. Or if so, “Russian disinformation.”
The Wild Geese Howard #379501 November 28, 2023 12:07 pm 0
Aliensvisualized automated machine guns back in 1986: https://youtu.be/IS2PtmM9mwU
Nicholas Name #379515 November 28, 2023 12:35 pm 0
That scene should have never been cut from the original. Great reference!
Ostei Kozelskii #379494 November 28, 2023 12:02 pm 0
Combat soldiers may well be a thing of the past, but once the bots have achieved their battlefield aims, men will have to occupy the newly won territories. And they will encounter old-fashioned guerilla warfare at that point. No true victory can occur until many boots are on the ground. I do not think that will ever change.
Jack Dobson #379504 November 28, 2023 12:13 pm 0
It is likely drones will be coupled with biological and chemical weapons to assure there aren’t enough survivors left to pose a guerilla threat. We are just getting a glimpse of how ugly the future portends to be.
Penitent Man #379564 November 28, 2023 2:07 pm 0
How far are we from genetic (race, ethnicity, regional grouping) markers being targeted for biowarfare? Terrifying.
Hemid #379568 November 28, 2023 2:36 pm 0
The US is known to have been pursuing ethnic-specific “germ warfare” since the early ’60s. Either they’ve succeeded already, or they can’t.The Soviets claimed—so American libs believed, and some aged ones who haven’t updated their software still do—that AIDS was a US bio-weapon aimed at black people.RFK Jr’s quickly abandoned flirtation with the idea that covid was ethnically targeted was him rerunning that old program, thinking it was still allowed. Boomer moment.The forgotten “biolabs” subplot of the Ukraine show may have been Putin’s true reason for invading. But something above him told him he’s not allowed to talk about that, so he stopped.
Jeffrey Zoar #379591 November 28, 2023 3:35 pm 0
Imagine the comedy when they realized it was killing off their beloved poofters instead of the negros
Bourbon #379570 November 28, 2023 2:41 pm 0
ACE-2 RECEPTOR: RFK Jr. says COVID may have been ‘ethnically targeted’ to spare Jews July 15, 2023 https://nypost.com/2023/07/15/rfk-jr-says-covid-was-ethnically-targeted-to-spare-jews/
Filthie #379480 November 28, 2023 11:37 am 0
Say what you want about Dilbert (Scott Adams) – a stopped clock is right on the money twice a day. “Propaganda works on us – even when we know it is propaganda.”This notion that small hobby drones can be repurposed into squad killer robots is patent nonsense. I am something of a chit house expert on cheap electronics (with emphasis on ‘cheap’) – and have built my hobby drones from scratch – and I heartily recommend it as a great father/son activity as a way of fostering an interest in electronics and robotics in kids. Let us be realistic: if you want to bust tanks, bunkers, and level buildings… you need the payload to do it! If the key to winning a war is as simple as duct taping an RPG to a small hobby drone, this war would have been over already. You wouldn’t be seeing half starved women on the front Ukranian front lines, you wouldn’t be seeing WW1 style trench warfare – and the Russians would have been driven back and cowering in fear in Moscow. This is readily apparent to anyone that has even a passing interest in cheap hobby drones. If it were that simple, we would throw our multimillion dollar Reapers, Predators and other mil drones in the garbage and be done with them. A serious payload requires a serious serious airframe to deliver it. The laws of aerodynamics will not be denied. The small drones HAVE made superb surveillance and reconnaissance possible… but we already have had that for well over 50 years with advanced surveillance aircraft and satellites.Yes, multirotors CAN carry payloads, but they are expensive, dedicated machines that require heavy lift capabilities. They are fragile, and require skilled operators to use effectively. The little guys CAN carry small fire crackers and submunitions… but they are not, and never will be serious game changers on the battlefield outside their surveillance capabilities. If they WERE game changers we would use them and win with them.The other ludicrous proposition here is that AI can autonomously pick and choose their targets. This MAY be possible with big things like armoured military vehicles and installations where the adversaries are using vastly different machinery and equipment. In this case, the Russians are using much of the same equipment that the Ukes are. The potential for friendly fire at this point of AI development is huge. I am dubious about this scenario alone – the algorithms required to distinguish between friend and foe would have to be DARPA level, black ops cutting edge shite that we would never release into the modern battlefield where the Russians might capture it and reverse engineer it. Uncle Sam has many faults, but his reluctance to put cutting edge technology on the Ukranian battlefield is legendary. Just look at the reluctance to field the famed invincible Abrams tanks in the Ukranian theatre. If those things were all they were cracked up to be the Russians and the Chinks would be deploying their own variants. As it is, they can build and field three relatively capable modernized T72’s for every Abrams we build.I think you said it best – that most of America’s high tech wonder weapons are grossly over sold and hyped beyond reason. You never say “never”… but in this case, there will be no new wonder weapons performing miracles on the battlefield, or novel surprise tactics or clever traps that change the course of the war. The reality is that the Russians have taken the very worst we can throw at them and prevailed with remarkably light casualties. Maybe one day small drones and AI machine gun nests be a reality… but for now…? I’ll believe it only when it is a documented reality. Again – you said it best: we live in an age where we literally can’t trust ANYTHING we see or hear.If I were the King Of NATO, I’d be concentrating on the enemy and learning the lessons he has taught us. There is a place in modern warfare for high tech… but it isn’t the answer and never will be. The Germans in WW2 actually had truly revolutionary weapons to field but lost anyways. I am fearful that we are going to make the same mistake. That – and coupled with our faggotified and our vibrantly diverse militaries, combined with our despicable leftist leadership … make it a near certainty that we will lose any conflict we care to engage in.
TomA #379499 November 28, 2023 12:05 pm 0
The purpose of the hobby drone is not to fight a war, but to fight the people that cause the war. And for that purpose, everything that you cite as a negative is in fact a significant advantage. You don’t need payload; just anonymity, numbers, and the element of surprise. Smarter not harder.
Filthie #379525 November 28, 2023 12:48 pm 0
Because it worked so well for the Ukranians, right?
TomA #379583 November 28, 2023 3:13 pm 0
God help us. Had they done so, half a million good men would still be alive today. But to answer your comment directly, they never tried and what came next should be a lesson to us all.
TBC #379529 November 28, 2023 12:56 pm 0
It is this line toward the end or your excellent analysis that resonates loudest…our faggotified and our vibrantly diverse militaries, combined with our despicable leftist leadershipI’ve spent my entire career working in defense electronics and seen some frightening shite developed…in the lab.The weakest link, the chink in the armor, always has been and always will be the squishy, fragile, incompetent meat ‘n bones operator out in the field, cowering inside the armor, or directing the mission from far out of harm’s reach.Battle ‘bots is a fun sideshow, but as soon as there are humans involved, making impulsive, stupid decisions, it all goes to hell. I’ve dealt with senior “technicians” in the army and navy who forgot over a long weekend how to power up the zillion dollar weapons systems we provide them. And despite obscenely expensive effort put into automated diagnostics (built-in-test and fault isolation) it still requires flesh-and-blood operators to request and fulfill spare parts orders, as well as prying out the defective gizmos and swapping them with replacements.You wouldn’t believe the nightmare clusterfvcks that are a daily occurrence on board those 5 billion dollar carriers, with room temp IQ “technicians” pretending to maintain fickle, state-of-the-art electronic weapons systems that look so damned invincible on paper.A copy of our latest, crazy-complex anti-ship missile system was actually bricked out in the Persian Gulf off Bahrain not long ago because the black, lesbionic sooperchick in charge of the radar room neglected to flip up the breakers on the transmitter unit. I was flown halfway around the world at enormous expense to “troubleshoot” that disabled breaker, and was rewarded with a typical sour homegirl pout as sooperchick was humiliated in front of an amused crowd when the system was back online in 40 seconds total elapsed time.The tools and toys continue to get exponentially smarter while those charged with maintaining them go the opposite direction.
Evil Sandmich #379575 November 28, 2023 2:59 pm 0
Just to piggyback, your talk can be applied to automation in general as the more that is asked of a piece of equipment the more that is asked of the operator.
Alzaebo #379604 November 28, 2023 4:44 pm 0
Heh. Like the Hiroshima bomb, even Skynet Terminators won’t be able to outdo the destructive power of Africa.
Moran ya Simba #379530 November 28, 2023 1:00 pm 0
Don’t judge drones by what they do right now, judge them by the potential that is clearly there. Small drones have destroyed MBTs in Ukraine. I see no reason why you could not have swarms of them. And they will come in different sizes and capabilities. The more accurate the smaller charge you need. Plenty of small drones could carry 20 oz of HEBesides, reconnaissance is one of those things people often underestimate the importance of. To hit the quarry you need to know where it is. Drones have already revolutionized this on the tactical field. If hand grenades are pocket mortars, small drones are backpack satellites
Filthie #379535 November 28, 2023 1:08 pm 0
Correct, It all hinges on the energy density of our explosives. Currently, there are no viable explosives out there strong enough to do serious damage. The payload on small hobby drones is around 100~200 grams… about half the size of a conventional NATO grenade.The vaunted Javelin missiles have a payload twice or three times that and they were a spectacular flop. Even at their best it took multiple hits to disable Russian tanks. The Russians now have more of them than we do because the Ukes threw them away.If you DO develop some miraculous explosive that can kill a tank with a mere 200g payload… the counter is already in the works. Reactive armour technologies are already working on the battlefield and working as advertized.This is why I say that high tech can only provide a temporary advantage… and IMHO… we are very, very close to losing that, if we haven’t already.
Moran ya Simba #379540 November 28, 2023 1:14 pm 0
It might not literally be hobby drones they use. They will be more rugged and expensive than a hobby drone from Walmart. But a $3000 drone that kills an artillery tube or three soldiers or an armored vehicle one third of the time, will be worthwhile
Steve #379548 November 28, 2023 1:29 pm 0
Exactly. Start with the battery pack on a modern drill. Enough power to spin the drill right out of your hands. Run time of more than long enough to get over target. Add 3-6 $20 stepper motors. Add an Arduino with gyro to get rid of most of the required operator skillset, something you could easily run using an off-the-shelf XBox controller. The reason you don’t see these in stores is not the cost. It’s the FAA licensing.
Filthie #379566 November 28, 2023 2:27 pm 0
Okay. Try that in -20C. Drop it? It’s done. Bump or knock it – it’s done. Rain? It’s grounded. Try dropping a light bomb in high winds.
thezman #379551 November 28, 2023 1:43 pm 0
The use of cheap quadcopters is limited to anti-personnel weapons, which si why we have thousands of videos online showing them dropping grenades on trenches. The point I was making was not that hobbyist drones are changing the battlefield, but that they are leading to things like Lancet drones which are revolutionizing the battlefield.
Filthie #379569 November 28, 2023 2:40 pm 0
You don’t have thousands of vids. Probably less than 100, shown thousands times. I have seen the same vid claiming the Russians are the hapless victims, then again claiming the Ukes are the victims. You can’t trust anything you see. I’ve seen dozens where the bomb goes off right beside the intended victim…and he walks away afterward.Again – Scott Adams applies. To understand the ins and outs of drone realities you literally have to get a drone and fly FPV to grasp the complexities. It’s do-able too. You should do it personally simply for the fun of it and prove it to yourself.I tried to do it myself. The tofts have dog competitions at a local dog park and I decided I was going to bomb them with wieners and hotdogs as a practical joke. My machine wouldn’t lift enough of a payload to make the effort worthwhile. Sure, it’s anecdotal and doesn’t prove much… but it puts the lie to a lot of the misinformation.Pity, that…
Steve #379602 November 28, 2023 4:42 pm 0
@Filthie, I agree that we are being played, but effective drones are NOT misinformation. All they are is illegal. Just like “J” size model rockets, it’s not that it can’t be done by amateurs, it’s that the powers that be are terrified of what can be done with modern batteries and circuitry. The 249g limit is not technological but rather legal. And like it or not, 250g of payload can easily put you into the Destructive Device category, even in the States. Canada is probably worse. And just the battery pack of a regular old drill takes you over the 249g limit to operate without a license.There are all kinds of prop designs you can download and 3D print and try out, but suffice it to say if you wanted to, you could easily loft a payload that would be lethal, even just kinetic payloads, using nothing but off-the-shelf parts.FPS drones are over-rated. Yeah, they can be fun, but unless your goal is to get some cool footage following a tight line, there isn’t much of a point. If times become sporty, being able to accurately drop a gallon of petrol will be much more useful than filming some cinematic scene. Wind, rain, etc. don’t really matter. In such a situation, you can always fly tomorrow.These are not concerns for countries at war. But they are massive concerns for countries who want their populaces to think drone technology is useless.
Filthie #379531 November 28, 2023 1:00 pm 0
The more I think about it, the more concerned I become. We assume that the Russkies and chinks aren’t developing these miracle wonder weapons because they can’t.What if it is because they WON’T? Consider: China has an academic elite every bit as capable as our own. The second they saw the Mars probes – they promptly made and built their own. The Russkies are the only guys to date that could put a probe on Venus. Their rocket engines are better than ours and can run at higher temps and pressures. These guys are not the backward peasants and illiterate serfs that they were 60 years ago. Their top minds and scientists compete tooth and nail for a position with their respective military/industrial complexes. Our top minds get banished for wearing tee shirts that offend feminists and vibrants… and are replaced by brain dead vibrants and feminists.I think they know something about these sooper-dooper high tech applications that we don’t. Working smarter? In this day and age…? I am dubious, to say the least.Do they know something we don’t?
Apex Predator #379595 November 28, 2023 3:46 pm 0
I feel like you answered your own skepticism already in your self-reply.Yes “off the shelf” DJI drones are not game changers, but they are a spectacular proof of concept. Just so happens DJI is a chink company…Those videos you are describing are one off attacks on individuals by someone who strapped a grenade to a DJI drone, that isn’t very effective.Now take an actual superpower with actual smart people (China, the US no longer qualifies on either count) and the R&D to massively expand that idea. I now have a drone swarm with made for purpose armaments, a small aerodynamic explosive charge. I send 1000 of these at once over top of your trench and have just eliminated your entire battalion.The psychological effect of that should not be underestimated.Likewise, why on earth would I try to attack the head of the snake by hitting the Abrams tank directly when I can simply snip off its massive logistics tail by peppering the supply chain with the same drone swarm and/or kamikaze drones?I feel like you are letting your commercial off the shelf experience limit your thinking on what a far larger budget and more creative thinking could achieve.An aircraft could be brought over the battlespace and release those 1000 drones all coordinated centrally. This is not some far future scenario, this can be done -today-. What defense would have against it?I have flown FPV drones, and I very strongly disagree with your take even with that experience. I have often thought when flying of the insane ways that platform could be weaponized. This is the tip of the iceberg we are seeing in the Uke.
Filthie #379622 November 28, 2023 9:59 pm 0
My mistake. I’m sure The Russians are quaking in their boots. At the end of the day, none of the cool kids or self proclaimed experts has actually flown an FPV drone or tried to weaponize it to carry a payload. Or deploy it. I’ve done both. The concept is pure sensationalism and hogwash the same way Covid was.
Moran ya Simba #379628 November 28, 2023 11:03 pm 0
You seem to be saying we’ve hit some kind of technological ceiling with regard to payload. I see absolutely no sign of this
Curious Monkey #379474 November 28, 2023 11:19 am 0
Do not forget these electronics still follow the laws of physics. They need recharges, batteries run out quick and you still need someone to recharge them. If they are remote controlled the signal can be jammed and if they are autonomous you can shot them and bring them down easily. These blades are cheap plastic and they should be easier to bring down.Boston Dynamics has some pretty scary robots, but you don’t hear a lot about how long the battery lasts and how robust are they against someone determined to stop them.These gadgets are very effective against dumb enemies, but smart armies with electrical and mechanical experts can figure out cheap plans against the cheap terminators.You can imagine the Russians figuring out how to jam the sensors of an automated machine gun, if they have a camera just paint the lens, if they have thermal sensing point a laser to it. If they are remote controlled jam the signal. You can only fall into an unexpected trap once (or a few times) until you figure out the mechanism and design a countermeasure.
Filthie #379486 November 28, 2023 11:52 am 0
EXACTLY.Atlas looks like a rock star as he dances and prances like the chubby nurses in the empty hospitals during the COVID scam… but in reality, all he is doing is running lines of code with cutting edge speed and advanced data acquisition. He is incredibly fragile when you look at him closely. You or I could take him out with a ball peen hammer. He could take himself out with one minor glitch or fall. To put him on the battlefield and keep him there? When all he can do is read code and preprogrammed instructions…?I have heard it said that to field one human on the battlefield takes at least 8 others in supply and logistics to keep him there. Putting these guys on the battlefield will take another 50 years of materials and R&D… and an incredibly advanced technical back up team the likes of the entire research staff at Boston Dynamics. Then you need an equally cutting edge industry to manufacture them and provide spares.
The Wild Geese Howard #379496 November 28, 2023 12:03 pm 0
Bear in mind that those Boston Dynamics demos are mapped out over the course of weeks, possibly even months. They’re not rolling those bots out of the lab and sending them in cold. Large scale battery maintenance is a critical activity, yet it is extremely hard to do well. This is because it is boring, repetitious work that requires attention to detail and solid technical judgment. That nakes it difficult to recruit worthwhile people for that role.
Eloi #379532 November 28, 2023 1:03 pm 0
I have always responded to people who OOOOHHHH and AAHHHHH to BD robots with the following illustration: Did you see that Boston Dynamics dog? Did you see how that dog could step over an obstacle? The guy even kicked it in the side and it didn’t fall over. Amazing! It cost only 40 million dollars to do that….On the other hand, my mutt dog, which cost $50 for the adoption fee, maintains her balance, too, when I kick her. And she can jump on the bed!For the record, I love my dog, and I do not kick her, especially now that she is in double digit age.
Jannie #379471 November 28, 2023 11:17 am 0
Can drones work in rougher terrain, like Afghanistan? One Air Force officer I spoke to said the best terrain to defend against drones is rocky/bouldery terrain. Don’t see much of that in Ukraine.
WCiv911 #379470 November 28, 2023 11:16 am 0
So, your drones beat my drones.Check. Your robots better than my robots.Check. Your germs kill more of my people than mine kill of yours.Check. Your cyber weapons hurt me more than mine hurt you.Check. Checkmate? No, I still have my nukes.
Moran ya Simba #379565 November 28, 2023 2:24 pm 0
AI will become able to defeat nukes before they’re fired and only your AI will be able to defend against that. And when you have AI supremacy over your adversary you won’t need nukes. Therefore I think AI will make nukes obsolete in 30 years. But will be more dangerous to humans as well. The cure for nukes will be worse than nukes are. And human freedom will be in the greatest peril ever.
rasqball #379607 November 28, 2023 5:49 pm 0
What IS “AI?”Can you define it for me, please, Moran y Simba?
Moran ya Simba #379624 November 28, 2023 10:33 pm 0
Artificial intelligence. If you want a definition of that I suppose “adaptive, self moderating computer systems”.Most here don’t believe me and my comment above is just a guess. But as everyone knows a lot is happening in this field. The Chinese and others I am sure, are asking their systems what those systems need to be able to disarm, say a medium nuclear power like Pakistan (the US, India) or France (Russia, China). The AI will augment its own development which is one reason, barring a TEOTWAWKI breakdown, the pace of development will accelerate.And one question resourceful powers will be asking is “hoe do we disarm our adversary of nukes”.
Lineman #379464 November 28, 2023 11:13 am 0
The automation revolution will mean the end of war, at least for the human participants.Or the end of humanity which is more likely…
Filthie #379492 November 28, 2023 11:58 am 0
You have already seen that notion proven false in the Kraine.
Lineman #379520 November 28, 2023 12:43 pm 0
Last I checked they were still using humans in that war…
miforest #379620 November 28, 2023 9:19 pm 0
No they are killing humans by the million. when its all over there will be no ukrainians left in ukraine. then blackrock will own the whole place. the robots seem to make it easier to kill the people , The casualties are looking WW1 – esque
Compsci #379626 November 28, 2023 10:46 pm 0
When the war in Ukraine is done, there will be a boom in (White) mail order brides. Good looking ones at that. 😉
Moran ya Simba #379457 November 28, 2023 11:04 am 0
Perhaps the worst part is all of this will come home to be part of an inescapable surveillance system. We will all be in a digital cage. Technology is making the world too small for personal freedom and privacy. I find that quite depressing
Marko #379465 November 28, 2023 11:13 am 0
Yes, but a digital cage run by the same people who run the DMV. And as IQ lowers, the cage will fall apart. That gives me a bit of hope.
Moran ya Simba #379473 November 28, 2023 11:18 am 0
Government incompetence may be a silver lining but two-edged; Jamal with his new DHS badge will now be flying drones full of HE over your house. That could be problematic
heemeyer the saxon #379468 November 28, 2023 11:14 am 0
I am reminded of an original Star Trek episode called “A Taste of Armageddon” where the war was fought entirely electronically, with simulated hits, and when one of these occurred, the simulated “victims” had a short time before they voluntarily had to report to a destruction center to be actually killed, AND THEY DID—sheeple! (snorts in derision).
Moran ya Simba #379475 November 28, 2023 11:20 am 0
Karen would love this “No, you have to die because the rules say so!”
Jeffrey Zoar #379491 November 28, 2023 11:58 am 0
There probably isn’t a single girl being named Karen anymore. The name is going to die out for a while. But it will probably make a comeback in some later era. Like we’re seeing some old long dormant names starting to come back now. Although Mabel hasn’t become trendy again yet.
Ostei Kozelskii #379503 November 28, 2023 12:10 pm 0
There was something in Revelations about Sha’Meerq’ua and Shaq’Tavi’us naming their niglets Madge and Fern…
Vizzini #379578 November 28, 2023 3:08 pm 0
My great grandma was Mabel, bless her heart. 🙂
Ostei Kozelskii #379502 November 28, 2023 12:08 pm 0
The covid mask would be replaced by masks impregnated with strychnine. And both equally necessary for the public good.
Moran ya Simba #379536 November 28, 2023 1:08 pm 0
“Society needs you to take this cyanide tablet.” It seems we are seeing something like this and Canada and the Netherlands seem to be at the forefront of it. It’s hard to know how much is hyperbole or disinformation but there are stories out there of doctors in Canada prescribing euthanasia for patients’ problems.
Jeffrey Zoar #379560 November 28, 2023 1:57 pm 0
We aren’t far away at all from what was depicted in Children of Men in 2006, where you could order the suicide pill kit online and have it shipped to your home
Pickle Rick #379456 November 28, 2023 11:02 am 0
A lot of this drone warfare debate reminds me of the interwar debate on the role of aircraft, particularly the advocates of “strategic bombing” against the backdrop of the Spanish Civil War and the Sino-Japanese War. I’m sure there are drone versions of Gulio Douhet, “Billy” Mitchell and Hugh Trenchard who maintain that “The drone will always get through” and predict apocalyptic techno-war, but reality does dial that back.As an aside, since I was a former machine gunner myself, I wonder about the practicality of that autonomous gun bunker as reported. A computer can’t change barrels, clear a jam, or slap in a new belt. Nor, as some smartass Marines proved, is it infallibly “smart”-https://www.businessinsider.com/marines-fooled-darpa-robot-hiding-in-box-doing-somersaults-book-2023-1“Two of the Marines did somersaults for 300 meters. Two more hid under a cardboard box, giggling the entire time. Another took branches from a fir tree and walked along, grinning from ear to ear while pretending to be a tree, according to sources from Scharre’s book.Not one of the eight was detected.The AI had been trained to detect humans walking…Not humans somersaulting, hiding in a cardboard box, or disguised as a tree. So these simple tricks, which a human would have easily seen through, were sufficient to break the algorithm.”
Arshad Ali #379461 November 28, 2023 11:09 am 0
Scharre’s book seems to be worth reading. Thanks for the link.
thezman #379462 November 28, 2023 11:10 am 0
You make a very good point about maintaining the gun. The images I saw were of a belt-fed machine gun. It had a servo for moving it around and some optics, which was probably used by a remote operator. You never know with these images that come out of Ukraine, so you cannot put too much stock in what you see. Still, it was most likely a conventional machine gun. Not only do you have the maintenance of the weapon, but you also have the other equipment like the servos and the computers.On the other hand, if you are building these things to be disposable, then you are going to rethink everything about the weapon. We are seeing this with tanks. Both sides are stripping down old tanks to use as remote operated weapons platforms. They are rethinking the tank in light of new technology.
David Wright #379469 November 28, 2023 11:16 am 0
What about Walter’s machine gun in the trunk of the car in Breaking Bad. Ran pretty will autonomously.
Suburban_elk #379493 November 28, 2023 11:59 am 0
I always thought that final scene was just not believable. That level of operation, which is to say killing all those people remotely and to the last man, being pulled off without a hitch, by a one man developer, and it goes just right on the first try. No way.
The Wild Geese Howard #379500 November 28, 2023 12:06 pm 0
It was not believable because any halfway competent security always checks the trunk. I worked on a Third World military base for years. The guards checked the trunk. Every single day.
Pickle Rick #379527 November 28, 2023 12:51 pm 0
I cogitated a little and think what was shown might not be some NATO superweapon being tested, but some Afro-engineered stuff slapped together by some Uke nerd who had a bright idea.First, NATO is not going to allow some cutting edge killbot tech get captured like that. They lose their minds when a drone gets shot down, so I think it unlikely that some supersecret wonderwaffen gets stuck in some Uke bunker on the front line for Ivan to capture.This feels like the Ukes were pulling back from their defense line, and in order to do that, they needed to make the Russians think the position was still manned, temporarily. so you rig up some field expedient shit like this to cover the pullback instead of sacrificing their ever limited supply of soldiers. In fact, the British/ANZAC forces did precisely this when they abandoned Gallipoli-they left rifles and machine guns in the empty trenches rigged with strings tied on the triggers, attached to a bucket that water dripped into, so the empty trenches were firing all night as the Tommies filed away to be evacuated. This smells like a higher tech version of that.
Moran ya Simba #379477 November 28, 2023 11:25 am 0
I’m more bullish on AI so let me suggest that AI will soon catch up to recognizing somersaults and such. About changing barrels, reloading etc that might make the system bigger but it’s certainly something robots could learn to do
Compsci #379490 November 28, 2023 11:58 am 0
Perhaps. But so far, some gun jambs I’ve seen have required a thought and dexterity in excess of anything short of a human to achieve solution. I suspect we’d need to redesign the weapons to some extent.
Moran ya Simba #379517 November 28, 2023 12:37 pm 0
They’ll go totally operations research on the problem; if it only costs 20 percent to produce 90 percent reliability compared to 99.99 because of diminishing returns on the last precision, how far du we get with robot guns 90 percent of which fire 90 percent of their ammo but cost 20 percent to make. Is that worthwhile? It’s the T-34 philosophy, only build it good enough. Don’t waste time on a super transmission etc
Eloi #379538 November 28, 2023 1:11 pm 0
Yeah – guns jamming is machinery failing. Machinery is generally not able to fix itself, just find routes around it to avoid complete failure. Of course, only one route exists for a round, but several points of failure exist. I am of the bearish variety.Now, could there be more indiscriminate use of robotics (e.g. fire at everything with a certain heat signature)? Sure. But, again, the solution and way around it seems to already be obvious. Always the hand of man will be needed to guide. No deus ex machina from the workshop of man.
Steve #379541 November 28, 2023 1:18 pm 0
Sure, but in my experience, most jams are operator related in the first place. I can run thousands of rounds through without issue, but when my 120# wife tries, she isn’t able to control the recoil as well as my lard butt, and ends up having to clear once every dozen or so. Same with pretty much any handgun above a 9, and some 9s with a high bore axis. DIL, same thing. She somehow manages to limp-wrist a full size M&P 9. Probably not a lot of redesign required apart from the mount.
Eloi #379563 November 28, 2023 2:02 pm 0
Actual deployment (as in one place, sitting, subject to the environment) presents multiple opportunities for disruption.
Vizzini #379576 November 28, 2023 3:04 pm 0
Yup. I was at the range with my daughter when she was first learning to shoot and had her trying my Glock 26. Now, that thing has been as reliable as it is possible for a gun to be for me though thousands of rounds, but she was getting a FTF every magazine or so because she didn’t have a good stable grip and stance (which has since been corrected!).
rasqball #379608 November 28, 2023 6:10 pm 0
Again: please define “AI” for me? I work in a (peripheral) field, and I thought I understood the term, both conceptually and as a practical matter, but…?(BTW – I’m with “water falling in buckets to fire the Enfields so the boys can get away…” on this one.)
Moran ya Simba #379625 November 28, 2023 10:45 pm 0
I’m not sure if you’re asking for a deep philosophical or a practical software and academic definition. But the latter are easily available and the former while relevant easily become very hairy and preliminary.Of more practical importance is that a major breakthrough happened in the field when they began using versions designed for language to analyze other material. And these proved very adept at that. Meaning that one architecture could now be used for very wide ranging tasks. This waa perhaps a simulation of general intelligence.This breakthrough worried a lot of the leaders in AI. Because they found it hard to control
Geo. Orwell #379484 November 28, 2023 11:46 am 0
Will so-called AI scanning the battlefield usher in the development of new research into camouflage? A sort of 21st century dazzle ships?
Eloi #379534 November 28, 2023 1:06 pm 0
The Marines holding a tree reminds me of the second prophecy of Macbeth’s downfall coming true hehe.
rasqball #379609 November 28, 2023 6:13 pm 0
Birnham Wood and Dunsinane.
RedBeard #379619 November 28, 2023 8:59 pm 0
Beat me too it.
Arshad Ali #379454 November 28, 2023 10:55 am 0
Something similar has been happening in the Middle East and Caucasus, has it not? And what has been happening in the Middle East and Caucasus is linked to the Russia-Ukraine tussle, is it not? Azerbaijan was using cheap Israeli and Turkish drones against Armenia. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran have all been testing and deploying drones and cheap(er) missiles against foes that have bigger and more expensive militaries. Likewise with the North Koreans. The poor man is finding workarounds for waging war against the rich man.The problem with the Americans seems to be they’re politically invested in large and expensive military systems — regardless of whether they work any more or not. USA’s military-industrial complex is a self-serving and prodigiously expensive affair, and one that is strategically scattered throughout the country so that every Congressman has a vested interest in keeping it going for the jobs and concomitant economic stimulus it provides. And of course in DC itself the MIC greases palms liberally. Not to mention that it provides well-remunerated sinecures to retired generals and admirals.And so it seems that the construction, maintenance, and deployment of white elephants like aircraft carriers will continue, regardless of the fact that they’re sitting ducks these days.
Ostei Kozelskii #379505 November 28, 2023 12:13 pm 0
Funny you should bring this up. Only last night I watched JFK…
Spingerah #379533 November 28, 2023 1:05 pm 0
Politics, marines were forced to take the osprey. A gee wiz machine with an a questionable safety record at best..not to mention 10+ hours of maintenance for every operational hour.The army was forced to keep buying Abrams & its endless “upgrades” in order to keep a production facility open and workers familiar in take building.Tha Navy with the littoral combat lemons. And the surface vessels with the biggest prise of all harpoonong a carrier. A goal adivsaries have been thinking about since 1945.Sooner or later this is going to happen. Whatyagunnado? only the dead have seen an end to war.
Jeffrey Zoar #379440 November 28, 2023 10:25 am 0
Paradoxically, this creates a scenario in which a declining GAE that can no longer afford expensive weapons, and lacks manpower to enforce its law, simultaneously increases its ability to enforce its will on the AINO economic zone population. Unfortunately, someday soon the regime’s drone swarms are going to make those rifles in our closets about as effective as zulu spears were against british rifles. Maybe less. Perhaps the poster who recommended expatriation was onto something, but it’s not as if drone tech stops at the (nonexistent) border. The devil you know and whatnot.
Chet Rollins #379448 November 28, 2023 10:39 am 0
The rifle fanatics I know are also drone fanatics. There is an innate instinct in those types to know and understand the battlefield they live in.
Moran ya Simba #379467 November 28, 2023 11:14 am 0
While it is good to be on the drone wave, I’m not sure this will save the bacon of the 2A anti tyranny logic. For starters drones are probably not covered by the 2A. But also drones are a computer technology and hence in rapid development whereas firearms are in very slow development. So the gov will find it easier to get ahead in drones and countermeasures. Whereas a rifle can’t get hacked, jammed etc IOW we stood better vs the gov in technologically stable platforms like firearms than we will in platforms in highly dynamic development like drones
Spingerah #379537 November 28, 2023 1:10 pm 0
High speed flying metal isn’t going out of style any time soon
Moran ya Simba #379460 November 28, 2023 11:07 am 0
Against the very smallest drones the shotgun may just have risen in relative importance. But your point still stands about rifles vs tyranny
Spingerah #379539 November 28, 2023 1:12 pm 0
High speed flying metal isn’t going out of style any time soon.Better hang on th grandpa’s ten gauge.
Moran ya Simba #379550 November 28, 2023 1:34 pm 0
Update the punt gun
Ostei Kozelskii #379507 November 28, 2023 12:16 pm 0
The hope is that the creeping decline of the Power Structure’s intellectual capital will render further development and maintainence of battle bots impossible. Patience and vigilance are our greatest assets.
Paintersforms #379585 November 28, 2023 3:17 pm 0
Perhaps more likely is the economic reality. Total war has a heavy cost that was easier to bear a couple of generations ago. I mean, I don’t think tptb haven’t nuked the world for humanitarian reasons. They know it would be bad for them, too. It sure isn’t conscience that limits warmongers. Hence my musing about limited war below.
Herrman #379439 November 28, 2023 10:25 am 0
It’s even cheaper to develop and deploy biological weapons, and the technical knowledge to engineer bioweapons is readily available and advancing rapidly. The future of warfare is not cheap terminator robots that can be detected and destroyed, but zombie viruses that are all but undetectable until the blood starts squirting from your eyeballs. Biowar has the added bonus of leaving all the infrastructure of your opponents intact.Once the biowar genie is out of the bottle it will make the mass killings of the 20th century look puny by comparison. Covid may well have been a test run. There will be no safety in Prospero’s abby.
thezman #379443 November 28, 2023 10:35 am 0
No doubt. Greg Cochran has long argued that the Soviets used biological weapons against the Germans at Stalingrad. The point being is we have been at this for a very long time and no doubt have come up with some very useful weapons. There is also the speculation that Covid was weaponized in an effort to destabilize China. Create a flu that hits Asians particularly hard and you have a powerful weapon against your biggest future adversary.
Jack Dobson #379458 November 28, 2023 11:05 am 0
There is pretty strong evidence that the United States already used bioweapons against China to keep from being overrun during the Korean War. The first law of war is there is no law of war. As an aside, something initially reported regarding the Wuhan Lab was bioweapons were engineered there specifically to target white people. Given the United States funded much of that laboratory, it is perfectly believable. There were neither follow-ups nor denials about the race-specific weaponry and that was quickly dropped.
Ostei Kozelskii #379509 November 28, 2023 12:23 pm 0
If the WuFlu was intended to strike whites with particular virulence, it failed miserably.
Jack Dobson #379549 November 28, 2023 1:31 pm 0
There were other bioweapons also discussed, and one in particular was claimed aimed at whites. That got my attention, as did its immediate memory-holing.
Alzaebo #379605 November 28, 2023 5:10 pm 0
Sterilization: slow but sure. Like the Russian or Barbara Spectre strategy, the point is not a quick victory. The point is to eliminate future generations of opposition from ever being born.
Marko #379472 November 28, 2023 11:18 am 0
Very interesting to me, and largely forgotten, is that Covid affected China first, and shortly afterward certain government ministers in Iran.
Chet Rollins #379446 November 28, 2023 10:37 am 0
Let’s not forget all the bio labs owned by the United States in Ukraine just outside Russia. Thinking the situation now is the same as chemical weapons in WWII. Everyone is waiting to see who uses them first.
Jack Dobson #379459 November 28, 2023 11:07 am 0
See my comment above. The United States likely used bioweapons against China during the Korean War. The line may have been crossed way back then.
Chet Rollins #379466 November 28, 2023 11:14 am 0
Sounds like a fun rabbit hole to dig into. Have a reading recommendation?
Jack Dobson #379476 November 28, 2023 11:23 am 0
If you can get around the paywall, The New York Times did several good pieces in the Nineties. It reported that Imperial Japan’s Unit 731, which developed bioweapons and was coopted by the United States after the war, had provided its captors with the very same weapons it had used against the Chinese.From memory, the main article was “The Crimes of Unit 731.” Of course, the NYT would be completely down now with using bioweapons on the GAE’s enemies. I will dig around for a book unrelated to the newspaper reports I read some time back and link it if found.
Jack Dobson #379478 November 28, 2023 11:25 am 0
Here’s a NYT review of that book, BASELESS: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/books/review/baseless-nicholson-baker.html
Chet Rollins #379483 November 28, 2023 11:45 am 0
Ahhh, the same guy wrote Human Smoke. great writer. I’ll check it out.
Jack Dobson #379497 November 28, 2023 12:04 pm 0
@Chet: He’s a great writer! HUMAN SMOKE was awesome, and I suspect some of the unsavory behaviors of the Allies in WWII that Baker chronicled, including the bioweapons developments, led to him to write BASELESS. He wasn’t the first to broach the subject of American use of bioweapons but he was the first to bring it to my attention. Take note that it was published almost simultaneously with the Covid panic.
TomA #379487 November 28, 2023 11:52 am 0
It’s already happening. mRNA agents reprogram cell function at the root level and can be engineered to express latently either via staged procreation effects or later triggered by external stimulation. If you call it a vaccine, the target population willingly infects itself without a single shot being fired. It is maximally efficient because it creates unknowing hostages that can be easily controlled by withholding the “cure” which only works with perpetual doses administered solely the state. No need for concentration camps and slave labor is in endless supply. This is what we’re up against. This is not a trivial fight.
c matt #379594 November 28, 2023 3:45 pm 0
One issue with biowar seems to me is that the consequences are far more unpredictable. A drone can be controlled but once a virus is unleashed who knows what it might do . . . or become.
Alzaebo #379606 November 28, 2023 5:18 pm 0
Don’t worry!As the rabbi says, once Esau (whites) and Edom (white Christianity, that is, Roman Europe and her colonies) are destroyed, the Messiah will come.
Reziac #379432 November 28, 2023 10:17 am 0
“…the result of old men determined to stick with the old ways of fighting a war, despite battlefield reality.” This has happened before. In 1776, the British still thought war should be tidy and organized. Lacking such resources, the Americans fought like bandits.
Secret Squirrel #379482 November 28, 2023 11:41 am 0
There was no conventional army! You might want to read about the Napoleonic era in terms of the “old ways” being bad.Even the civil war.
Templar #379940 November 30, 2023 3:44 pm 0
They fought like bandits until they began receiving support (and training) from conventional military forces from France, Germany, etc.
Captain Willard #379431 November 28, 2023 10:16 am 0
This was a great piece. I would just add two points:1) The Ukraine War shows that ISR is an essential battlefield tool. Any effort to mass troops and equipment can be detected from space and drones/robots/long-range artillery can be dispatched against it. The corollary is that any country without ISR is essentially screwed and will be reduced to guerilla warfare, even with drones etc. Being “neutral” – without access to space-based ISR – also means you’re screwed.2) The US Military and upper planning echelons have understood this robot/drone phenomenon for a long time. As I mentioned here a while back, the last QDR (2014, pages 14,21) discussed it as did the 2018 NDS. The problem of course is that procurement/graft cycles are long, entrenched interests prefer huge, expensive multi-District platforms and there is a huge military-institutional bias against COTS (commercial off-the-shelf) technology.If I had to guess, the US is going to invest heavily in this stuff because we cannot afford manned big metal anymore and it’s obsolete. The deficit will force rationalization of programs. The labor shortage will force the substitution of robots/drones for soldiers.
Nicholas Name #379442 November 28, 2023 10:29 am 0
“…procurement/graft cycles…” I love this phrase
Geo. Orwell #379479 November 28, 2023 11:29 am 0
One thing is certain. The military-industrial complex will find a way to make cheap robot weapons expensive, such that the trillion dollar military budget never shrinks.
Ostei Kozelskii #379511 November 28, 2023 12:28 pm 0
All drones will be equipped with gold-plated curb-feelers, tinted windows, spinner rims, and bumpin’ systems that blast rap at deafening levels. That’ll drive up the price and provide boo-coo multicultural enrichment into the bargain.
Pozymandias #379567 November 28, 2023 2:35 pm 0
The basic problem is that the MIC is baked into the US economy at a deep level similar to that of the welfare state. As people have pointed out here, it’s entrenched in every Congressional district. An added problem is that the “stance” of the US military has been to aggressively seek involvements abroad, particularly in the ME. So you’ve got strong economic and political *needs* for constant warfare. There doesn’t seem to be much of a need to actually win these wars though since the nations the US has picked on have had little capability to strike back at the US mainland. This is why we keep seeing these things like Iraq and Afghanistan that eventually just get abandoned with a shrug and a chorus of “well, we tried.”
ProZNoV #379430 November 28, 2023 10:15 am 0
New technologies are unpredictiable.Knowing that the clash-of-armies might mean an embarrassing (and expensive) loss of tanks, planes on runways, and ships at sea, major powers might go straight for the jugular and massively attack civilian infrastructure remotely to “break the will” of the enemy.Saw some of this already with the destruction of the Kakhovka dam and the Nord stream pipeline, and certainly in Gaza by “America’s greatest ally”.Never put it past the military to “save soldiers’ lives” by inflicting mass civilian casualties (If I were Pvt. Tries Hard 1st Class, I certainly wouldn’t mind).Drones may make “Total War” a binary choice…all or nothing.
Nicholas Name #379447 November 28, 2023 10:39 am 0
Bruce Sterling wrote about this very thing in “Heavy Weather” and other books in the 90’s. A side note of his imaginary future was that war had evolved into deniable “structure hits” carried out by proxies, drones, and computer hacks. His book “Distraction” even featured a military checkpoint that also hosted a bake sale to fund Barksdale Air Base. The guy was a visionary.
Ostei Kozelskii #379514 November 28, 2023 12:31 pm 0
If that’s the case, why mollycoddle about? Rather than attack dams and pipelines, why not just inflict a few Dresdens, Tokyos, Hiroshimas and Nagasakis?
Nicholas Name #379522 November 28, 2023 12:45 pm 0
My grandfather did that very thing in a B-24 in WW2. But since then we have only fought wars of choice, which affords the luxury of choosing how to fight, and the American public thinks dead civilians are icky and gross. This is related to choosing to lose those wars.
Jeffrey Zoar #379586 November 28, 2023 3:24 pm 0
Less plausible deniability, greater risk of retaliation
Mow Knowname #379428 November 28, 2023 10:14 am 0
How much does China spend on its military? How much does China INVEST in wire, small motor, plastic and chemical manufacturing? America won WWI and WWII because it had production. What do we produce today? Diversity, homosexuals, transvestites and strawnk indapandant wahmen will not be counted as an asset in a future conflict.
Geo. Orwell #379481 November 28, 2023 11:41 am 0
In fact, currently China has greater industrial capacity than the GAE and the EU combined.
G Lordon Giddy #379427 November 28, 2023 10:13 am 0
I also wonder about some kind of EMP weapon that will render electronics useless? Maybe we make a full circle back to spears and shields or at minimum the simple Enfield rifle.
Captain Willard #379434 November 28, 2023 10:18 am 0
The Navy and other branches understand the EMP threat pretty well. They have been working on this issue since the 1980s (at least). Whether they have solved it, I don’t know.
thezman #379438 November 28, 2023 10:24 am 0
From what I gather, the Russians are using electromagnetic energy to disable drones and missiles. From what I have read, they do this not by damaging the electronics of the target by by interrupting its guidance systems. My guess is this is a matter of cost. Wheeling out a vehicle capable of delivering a transient electromagnetic disturbance at a small flying target would be expensive an perhaps impractical, due to the energy requirements. This has been the issue with lasers.
The Wild Geese Howard #379449 November 28, 2023 10:40 am 0
Disrupting and spoofing signals in missile guidance systems requires a lot less energy than physically damaging the circuitry. That said, there are inherent physical limitations in modern ICs that do permit them to be damaged at relatively low radio signal levels.
Nicholas Name #379452 November 28, 2023 10:48 am 0
GPS guidance is also a choke point that is baked into nearly all long-range guided weapons. The Russians are experts at jamming/spoofing these satellite signals. They can also focus radar beams from their more powerful air defense systems to fry computer chips…and that works against manned aircraft as well.
Ostei Kozelskii #379516 November 28, 2023 12:36 pm 0
Seems to me the next logical objective is to figure out how to project disruptive energy–of whatever stripe–accurately to a large sector of enemy territory from whence the battle bots originate. If you could press a button and render a massive swarm of these bots inoperable, you might be on the path to returning humans to the battlefield, for better or worse.
Nicholas Name #379528 November 28, 2023 12:53 pm 0
The MIL has been working on this for a while with the hardware being mounted on an airship (but don’t call it a blimp). Massive. Fragile. Visible from the horizon. Tethered to a ground power supply. Over $100m per unit. MIL wet dream.
Mike #379523 November 28, 2023 12:46 pm 0
I recall an incident a few years ago with a USN destroyer or maybe RN was noodling around Crimea on the edge of territorial waters. A Russian patrol plane of some kind overflew the destroyer and somehow disrupted all electronics on board. They were helpless until the plane either was out of range or turned off whatever they were using.I’m pretty sure that Russia has been fighting with one arm tied behind their back and willl have some suprises for NATO when the war turns hot. Also I’d bet that it won’t last as long as the Ukraine kerfuffle has lasted.
TomA #379425 November 28, 2023 10:10 am 0
All true, and price of that education has been the needless deaths and maiming of hundreds of thousands of white guys (most of whom are average Ivans and family men). And the beat still goes on and on.Why are these guys continuing to sacrifice themselves for the enrichment of poseurs like Zelensky and his Western handlers? What insanity causes them to enter a high-tech slaughter mill, die miserably and automatically, leaving behind wives and children to fend for themselves? How can anyone think that that is patriotism? Who among us would die for Joe Biden?What is the real lesson of this transition to cheap and autonomous hunter-killer technology? Anyone can learn to build it in a garage, basement, spare bedroom, office storeroom, or anywhere innocuous that suits your interest. And its best utilization is not for killing your namesake in the trench across from you. Its for killing the son-of-bitch that put you in that position.
ProZNoV #379436 November 28, 2023 10:20 am 0
The only way war will be made “obsolete” is going to be to replace it with something much, much worse. Unfathomably evil, but mass industrialized economies probably made it inevitable.
David Wright #379441 November 28, 2023 10:28 am 0
There all not going willingly.
Forever Templar #379422 November 28, 2023 10:08 am 0
“Soon, sending men to clear a building will seem as antiquated as the cavalry charge.” Lol, no it won’t. Clearing a building is often done for seeking cover and establishing a fighting position when engaged in an urban setting. If a drone starts dropping its BS on a convoy or a surveillance platform is detected, putting a roof over your head is not a bad idea. If the nearest building is of unknown quality, it’s getting cleared and utilized – simple as. Christ, this article is one of your worst.
thezman #379426 November 28, 2023 10:12 am 0
Your comments are not even wrong.
Mow Knowname #379433 November 28, 2023 10:17 am 0
Pax, Mr. Templar. It might be our host’s “worst”, but even bad arguments can be learned from.
Nicholas Name #379455 November 28, 2023 10:59 am 0
I think the current room clearing doctrine is what will become obsolete rather than room clearing itself. Instead of stacking, breaching, and entering, I (roughly) imagine a “toss drone” would become included as a matter of course. I tested some of these about 8yrs ago and they add LOTS of capability.
thezman #379463 November 28, 2023 11:12 am 0
There are a ton of videos of Russian using drones to clear buildings. In villages where the building are of the residential type, the first drone takes the top off building and right behind it is a thermobaric bomb on a FPV drone. Everyone inside is vaporized.
Citizen of a Silly Country #379420 November 28, 2023 10:05 am 0
The real question is what does this mean for GAE? Cheap warfare would seem to negate the advantage of spending well over $1 trillion a year on the military. If Russia can spend $80 billion and defeat you, well, that’s a bit of a problem. China will be able to spend $500 billion, no sweat. That’s a lot of drones, missiles and robots.The entire US strategy seems to be based on the idea that our technology is just so much better than Russia or China that if an actual war did happen, we’d wipe them out. But if that’s not case, what happens next.What happens if Iran launches a warning missile that penetrates a carrier group but lands harmlessly. Same for the Chinese in the South China Sea.Ukraine may not be the Suez Crisis for the US, but I’d suspect that other large countries no longer fear US military power as they did before the war. Nor do they fear economic sanctions as much.
RealityRules #379556 November 28, 2023 1:51 pm 0
This is the interesting point that first struck me. I could see this cutting both ways for the GAE. On the one hand, if it has to spend significantly less, than it may help with financial stresses, though there would be shockwaves on those dependent on military spending largesse. A couple that come to mind: a transformation in the oligarchy from legacy companies to newer, leaner companies; Fallout from the end or transition of the, “conservatives”, traditional spoils system.I don’t understand any of this and I much of it is too early to tell what it all means and where we end up. I listened to this recent podcast with Palmer Luckey of Anduril. He really underscored ZMan’s point or emphasis on cost vs capability or cost of capability.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kONhhKQi0pU&pp=ygUicGFsbWVyIGx1Y2t5IG1pa2Ugc29sYW5hIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3DI am sure this will lead to more rabbit holes. I see the GAE with some severe domestic issues that make it very hard to think about anything else. Though, cheap autonomous or semi-autonomous weapons systems do have massive implications for what happens if the GAE descends into a bunch of, “balkanized neighborhoods”, as I recently heard Sam Dickson describe them.
Vizzini #379419 November 28, 2023 10:00 am 0
I wonder how well robotic systems survive EMPs.Other weak points:* The industrial infrastructure required to build the drones and robots. You can’t fabricate a microchip in your basement. Industrial sabotage may become big business. He who controls the spice, er, I mean chip manufacturing, controls the universe.* Software is hackable. If not in the field, then back at the developers. Again, industrial sabotage and infiltration.* Drone operators and programmers gotta sleep sometime. Assassinations and attacks on the civilian infrastructure that support the robotics.Stripping humans from the battlefield could just move the battlefield into everyone’s homes, nastier than ever.
Citizen of a Silly Country #379423 November 28, 2023 10:09 am 0
Well, if the battlefield moves to where the operators and programmers live and work, the assassins will find that they are targets too. Hmm, which country can locate a potential foreign assassin better, a multi-racial, multi-ethnic country or a country 99% Chinese?
Vizzini #379444 November 28, 2023 10:35 am 0
Hey, man, diversity is our strength!
WillS #379451 November 28, 2023 10:46 am 0
We need a laughing emoji.
Lineman #379488 November 28, 2023 11:52 am 0
That’s why your skin color will be your uniform Brother…
Captain Willard #379437 November 28, 2023 10:21 am 0
Great points. This is why the US has embargoed high-end semiconductor manufacturing equipment shipments to China.
Citizen of a Silly Country #379453 November 28, 2023 10:52 am 0
And why the Chinese seemed to have developed some pretty good chips of their own.
Ostei Kozelskii #379519 November 28, 2023 12:43 pm 0
Necessity be da mutha
Tars Tarkas #379495 November 28, 2023 12:03 pm 0
The Russian civilians use a common Chinese security camera system that has a built in speaker. It’s very widely used in Russia. The Ukrainians hacked into the system and had all the cameras playing the Ukrainian national anthem. The cameras also recorded and uploaded the reactions to it. That was some grade-A trolling via hacking.
Mike #379552 November 28, 2023 1:45 pm 0
No, it’s useless and of no benefit to the Ukraine and will blow back on them at soome point if it hasn’t already. If they spent as much time actually trying to fight as they do on tricks and propaganda they would still lose but they wouldn’t piss Russia off and make it harder on themselves after the war.
Evil Sandmich #379581 November 28, 2023 3:11 pm 0
Chinese security camera system I think that’s the only kind there is, I mean, if you lump “Taiwanese” in there too.
Anon #379498 November 28, 2023 12:05 pm 0
IIRC, silicon-on-insulator stuff is naturally rad hard (the COTS engineers need to add a circuit breaker to get export clearance). Other circuit technologies have well-known solutions for this vulnerability. True guerilla/irregular fighters will have to use the vulnerable COTS versions, but any half-decent country can work around it easily.
Forever Templar #379416 November 28, 2023 9:54 am 0
“The Russians have always been the best at electronic warfare.”No, they haven’t. It was only recently, within the last 15 years, that their ability to utilize effective, deployable electronic warfare platforms went beyond making jerk-off motions with their hands. You could argue they never really developed the capacity on their own as all their stuff they’re using is off-the-shelf to begin with and adapted for field use. I know I’m right because the Soviet Union never had ANY reputation for decent field electronics and every piece of Russian-made electronic I’ve come across was garbage (commo gear especially) for the respective era.Now, the Russians have modernized, granted, but that was, like I said, recently; whatever reputation they gained was also recent.
thezman #379429 November 28, 2023 10:15 am 0
It has only been in the last 15 years that EW has become important, so you are saying, without knowing it, that the Russians have been pioneers in the field.
Secret Squirrel #379485 November 28, 2023 11:47 am 0
EW was important in WW2. You not familiar with the bombing of Germany and Britain? Plenty of good books on the tech war between the Allies and Germany to better their ability to destroy each other .
thezman #379489 November 28, 2023 11:54 am 0
We may be running into the vagaries of language. When I talk about EW, I am thinking specifically about knocking out enemy aircraft and communications. In WW2, radar played a big role, for sure, but they were not using radio waves to disrupt opposing aircraft and hijack their satellite communications.
David Wright #379415 November 28, 2023 9:53 am 0
Seems like we are heading for warfare like from the movie Screamers.https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114367/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_56_act
ProZNoV #379421 November 28, 2023 10:07 am 0
Underrated Peter Weller movie.
Paintersforms #379414 November 28, 2023 9:51 am 0
There’s been talk of neofeudalism for years, now I read this. The return of limited war between kings? There’s a mind bender!
Hun #379413 November 28, 2023 9:47 am 0
“The automation revolution will mean the end of war, at least for the human participants.” Unless your goal is to kill as many enemy civilians as possible.
Jack Dobson #379417 November 28, 2023 9:54 am 0
Yep. Especially your own citizens who are targeted for genocide.
Keep on truckin #379411 November 28, 2023 9:40 am 0
Good food for thought here. All those gadgets are nice, as long as you can operate and feed them.Then it’s time to use all those old ideas that will be new again. CRS anyone? The best lessons are the ones that are remembered
Marko #379410 November 28, 2023 9:39 am 0
Well at least the next great robot Napoleon won’t have cuckold issues….
Rando #379409 November 28, 2023 9:39 am 0
I remember a while back reading an article about Iran building a new type of ship. Instead of carrying manned aircraft it was loaded with lots of drones.
thezman #379435 November 28, 2023 10:20 am 0
The benefit of the aircraft carrier is that it can stand off from your land-based defenses. We park an airfield off your coast that you cannot hit with missiles, but the planes can hit you with its missiles. Throw in cruise missile ships and subs and it is a powerful asset, as long as it is unreachable.Once drones are able to reach these assets, things change quickly. Imagine a fleet of small autonomous boats packed with explosives but also carrying a few aerial drones. They are hard to detect and they get those drones close enough to you big expensive assets to cause real damage.In the Black Sea, the Russians deployed booms all over the place to prevent the drones away, but this severely limits what you can do with your own ships. The mere threat of autonomous weapons changes things greatly.
Gespenst #379408 November 28, 2023 9:38 am 0
Probably anti-robot robots are the next thing.


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