I Have My Doubts

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I’ve rewritten this post a few times now, mostly because I keep thinking about a rule that I think all of us should follow. That is, no enemies to the Right. The reason the Buckley thing is falling to pieces is they invested all of their time slicing pieces off of the right side of their movement. The Birchers were easy, but before long they were slicing off vital parts. The reason the so-called alt-right exists is that so much of the Right had been purged, the fringe has become a majority.

Still, there’s a lot of the alt-right that creates a fair bit of doubt in my mind.  Since the election, the media has been racing around looking for “leaders” of the alt-right to report on and interview. That’s catnip to the sort of people who like being famous more than they like being right. It also attracts people who think they can make a buck off selling people what they want to hear. That’s how the Tea Party went from grass roots movement to a bust-out. How long before someone launches a line of Pepe gear?

For instance, is Mike Cernovich a guy in it for the money or a higher purpose? I don’t spend a lot of time reading his site, or any time to be honest, but his name pops up a lot in stories about the alt-right. I see he is peddling a book called MAGA Mindset with a picture of Trump on it. Maybe it is all above board and perfectly legit, but it could be just another grift too. It’s hard to know. Would he be selling the Commie Mindset if Bernie Sanders had won the White House? I don’t know, but it is a good thing to keep in mind.

There’s a difference between selling the word and spreading the word. It’s the Bible salesman versus the missionary. The former could just as easily be selling toasters or porn. The point of the exercise is to make the sale. Their product is just a means to an end. The missionary, on the other hand, is the product. He is selling more than just his wares. He is selling himself. His identity is measured in converts. VDare begs for money so they can proselytize, not so Peter Brimelow can drive a Ferrari.

It’s not just the fringy sorts that give me pause. Ann Coulter was an enthusiastic champion of Mitt Romney. She used to talk about Chris Christie as a lion of the Right. She was a late arrival to the immigration patriotism cause. Ann Coulter is in the business of selling books. It has worked to our favor that she picked up the cause of immigration and then championed Donald Trump, but what happens if she can sell more books promoting open borders? I’m not questioning her sincerity, just making a point about motives.

I don’t want to cast aspersion on these people. I don’t know enough about Cernovich to judge his motives. Honestly, my hunch is he is just a harmless weirdo.  Ann Coulter was a skeptic of the Bush Klan going way back. She was fond of ripping into the Bush people over “compassionate conservatism” before it was popular. Ann Coulter has taken a lot of abuse and lost a few friends over her Trump support. Still, it is wise to be skeptical about people making a living selling you what you want to hear. Talk radio falls into this too.

Money is one reason for skepticism. Hidden agendas are another. Fringe movements that gain traction inevitably attract members of other fringe movements. Every fringe weirdo in America is hoping on the alt-right bus, hoping to ride it to legitimacy. During the election, Jill Stein tried to ride the Bernie Bro wave. When that failed, she went on Twitter, aping Donald Trump, by calling Hillary crooked and corrupt. She even started making noises about immigration, thus earning her the nickname  “Based Yenta.”

Richard Spencer is another good example. Watching the NPI event the other day, I kept getting the sense that Peter Brimelow was there to legitimize Spencer, not because Spencer had a big stage to offer Brimelow. Spencer invests a lot of time declaring himself the Pope of the alt-right, but my guess is hardly anyone calling themselves alt-right knows anything about him. The next time someone quotes Richard Spencer to me, it will be the first time. His white identity thing is a tiny club without out much of a future.

The point here is not to disparage these people. I think Richard Spencer is mostly harmless. I’m just using him as an example to make a point. Populism is always going to be open to a lot of oddballs looking for a home, but it is important to remember that they are the ones seeking shelter, not the ones building the shelter. The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again.

Skepticism is a good thing. There are a lot of people pulling down their freak flag now and hoisting the Pepe banner. Most of it is harmless and well intended, but not all of it. It’s never easy to know so it is wise to maintain a healthy degree of doubt about all of them. Old soldiers like Brimelow or Sailer have earned trust over long careers, but all the new guys have a long way to go before we can really know what they are up to and assess their  motivations. Until that’s clear, I have my doubts.

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Comments (Historical)

The comments below were originally posted to thezman.com.

100 Comments

kokor hekkus #21840 November 22, 2016 12:43 pm 20
“The Birchers were easy.”–no, The Birchers were right, and therefore unacceptable to CIA man Buckley. Ann Coulter and Mike Cernovich write books and tweet, whereas Spencer seems to have turned into an attention whore…you need to understand the difference. You also need to understand that intelligent people change their opinions and attitude as the situation on the ground changes. Fifteen years ago, I thought immigration was harmless. Now it has become clear that it will destroy the USA….
thezman #21845 November 22, 2016 1:04 pm 4
I don’t disagree. I’ve changed my mind on things too. Immigration is certainly one of them. My immigrant friends turned me around on it. until the 90’s, I never thought much about it. As far as the Birchers, they had the same problem that Spencer and his posse of prep school fascists have. If you make it easy for normal people to mock you, you have no chance to get a fair hearing. That was the problem with the Birchers. It’s the problem with Spencer.
TempoNick #21868 November 22, 2016 2:11 pm 11
As a first generation born American with an entire extended family of immigrants born in the former Yugoslavia and Greece, I grew up in an environment that makes me very open about my prejudices and calling people out by group when there is “observable reality” that backs up my opinions.As someone who who grew up psychologically with one foot in Europe, I feel very strongly that America has to maintain its foundations from its English, European and Christian ancestry (especially English and Christian). Flooding this country with Muslims or Hindus or other races that change the character of this country is a non-starter for me. I have nothing against those other peoples, but I don’t want America to become what the left has turned our inner cities into.I don’t consider managed Latino immigration inconsistent with this though I know others on this board disagree. But the time has come to pause immigration and I say that even knowing that I am a beneficiary of this country’s immigration laws. (Though my being here has nothing to do with the 1965 Act.) Also for the record, my family members are some of the most patriotic people you will find.
Taco_Town #21871 November 22, 2016 2:18 pm 7
I think if we pause the influx we can assimilate a lot of the Latino immigrants not unlike we did for the Irish and Italians. The more we let in the less pressure there is for them to assimilate. We also need to take on leftist identity politics and win, but that was already a given.
cicatrizatic #21877 November 22, 2016 4:27 pm 8
The statistics on English-speaking Latinos v. Spanish speaking Latinos is telling. I don’t have a link handy, but if I recall correctly, among Latinos who speak predominantly Spanish, they vote Democrat 80/20. Among Latinos who speak predominantly English (bi-lingual, but speak English well and in public), they vote Democrat 48/41. Essentially, as Latinos become assimilated to the use of the English language on a daily basis, they approach political neutrality as an ethnic group.
TempoNick #21882 November 22, 2016 5:12 pm 2
I think Latin American culture is close to Southern European culture. They are both predominantly Catholic and the families are tight, not to mention that there are a lot of European immigrants to South America as well. I don’t have a problem with managed immigration from South America because they are culturally compatible once they have assimilated.
TempoNick #21838 November 22, 2016 11:54 am 17
The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again.What is Germany without Germans? What is France without the French? What is Italy without Italians? What is the Netherlands without the Dutch? What is Russia without Russians? What is Greece without Greeks?America is historically a supermajority Anglo – European Christian nation, with significant black and Native American minorities. This can’t be America without Americans and people with Anglo and European Christian ancestry are the Americans. Anything that changes this mix I am against, whether it is politically correct or racist to say so or not.So while this is not about white supremacy, don’t kid yourself that race is not a component. And there is nothing wrong with that either.
thezman #21841 November 22, 2016 12:48 pm 7
I’m fine with that. I think the Spencer people are more into creating their own private Idaho, which is a different thing altogether.
Taco_Town #21850 November 22, 2016 1:11 pm 5
Your own private Idaho makes sense if you’re sure that the current society will end in failure and civil war. I couldn’t say if that’s their line of thinking, just putting it out there. Personally, I haven’t given up hope. If we can slow down Latino immigration, I think there is a good chance to assimilate enough asians and latinos into white middle America to keep a comfortable majority.
thezman #21852 November 22, 2016 1:18 pm 10
The thing is, Spencer’s act is not new. In the 80’s, the white nationalist guys tried out a preppy version of their thing. They dropped the harsh language and stopped the holocaust denial. It never worked because they always let the mask slip. They were never as smart as they imagined. There’s no market for hard segregation. There is a market for freedom of association.
Dutch #21861 November 22, 2016 1:54 pm 7
Making people WANT to be “Americans” is the essence of the issue. Those who want to live in their own culture while dwelling here, or want to be known as “hyphenated-Americans” don’t cut it. Successful immigration is about having the immigrants join a great “club” and be proud to do so. The first step is to make the club worth joining–hence “MAGA”.
Taco_Town #21863 November 22, 2016 1:59 pm 5
And I think this is the way forward. The cucks talk about amnesty and doing their own version of pandering to identity politics, but they are never going to win that battle. What the right should be doing is doubling down on middle America and inviting outsiders to truly assimilate, in every sense of the word, or at least acquiesce, and join the club.
TempoNick #21883 November 22, 2016 5:14 pm 0
What Republicans really should be doing is pushing the pocketbook issues and poetic rhetoric about how they want everyone to realize the American dream. That’s what immigrants are here for — not welfare and government health care. Otherwise, they would have stayed in their homelands.
Sam J. #21904 November 22, 2016 11:55 pm 2
“…private Idaho…” “…Walkin’ through a gate that leads you downDown to a pool fraught with dangerIt’s a pool full of strangers Hey, you’re living in your own Private Idaho…”
Uncle_Max #21856 November 22, 2016 1:41 pm 0
gross… bad visual. heh
teapartydoc #21829 November 22, 2016 10:49 am 15
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/11/controlled-opposition-or-media.htmlVox Day’s take on the same issue.I saw Rhodesia fall because people were more desirous of keeping a pure image via virtue signalling rather than do the right thing. I did not fully realize that this was what was happening at the time, but now that I do know it you will never see me punch to the right ever again. Any criticism will be over whether a particular tactic or stand taken advances the cause of the right, regardless of what that stand or tactic is. If giving a Nazi salute at a gathering creates a winning atmosphere for the right, I’m all for it. If it doesn’t, I’m not particularly enthusiastic about it, but unless the perp turns out to be an infiltrator who is trying to sabotage the cause, my criticism will be confined to making the point that it was unhelpful, not to facilitate the leftist media by denouncing the dude(s). Privately shunning them might in some cases be appropriate, though.Allowing the left and the media to determine what is good for the movement and what is not is to make them the de facto leaders of your movement.
Sam J. #21897 November 22, 2016 9:25 pm 3
“…my criticism will be confined to making the point that it was unhelpful, not to facilitate the leftist media by denouncing the dude(s)…” I agree this is the best way.
James LePore #21888 November 22, 2016 5:43 pm 13
One of my rules of thumb is if the NY Times and the Upper Westside elite hate your guts you’re alright with me. Coulter and Limbaugh have been on the frontlines for a long time. Did they get rich? I don’t care as long as they don’t sell out, which they haven’t. I really like this guy Milo Y. He’s breaking liberal balls all over the place. Is he making money? I don’t care. It’s not my business. Being a winner is a heady thing. As Z says it attracts a lot of crazies. Some of them may have something to contribute. Remember the Impeach Earl Warren signs put up by the John Birch Society?
jay dee #21865 November 22, 2016 2:03 pm 13
Not exactly on topic, but had to share….. Charlie Rose last night. 1st segment interview with Thomas Friedman, he of the New York Times. He has a new book out. “…It might be my last…”, he says. We can only hope. Second segment: Forgot names, but male reporter w/NYT and female reporter w/Vanity Fair. They discussed Jared Kushner. That was Charlie’s line-up. All four people are probably no more than a 10 minute walk from one another in the MidTown hive. I don’t think they quite get it yet.
Drake #21866 November 22, 2016 2:08 pm 6
I would be far more interested (not saying much) in what 4 random people in Wichita, Tulsa, or Des Moines have to say.
Dutch #21876 November 22, 2016 4:15 pm 8
Charlie doesn’t want to “get it”. His little world is well established, and when it further fades into tv oblivion, he and his sort will mourn the loss of “civilized discussion”. Never mind that he sucks up to the people of like mind, and treats those who differ as criminals and idiots.It has been mentioned that his table is on the way to the Smithsonian when he retires. Great, yet another artifact that will have no meaning at all for 99.9% of the visitors who look at it, even after they read the card explaining what it is and how significant it is.
Jim VA #21895 November 22, 2016 9:15 pm 3
Watch Charlie’s interview of Michael Crichton on global warming. It’s all you need to know about good ole Charlie. https://youtu.be/4pcjBxNBmKA
Steveaz #21887 November 22, 2016 5:39 pm 12
It’s clear the Left is trying to “Kurt Waldheim” Donald Trump. And to do this they NEED to promote the Alt-right as if it is equivalent in statute and malice to Hitler’s National Socialists. This, the Left’s queer interest in magnifying and propagating this salacious faction on the political stage should be enough to trigger second thoughts about the integrity of the Alt-right’s commercial advocates-s
Drake #21860 November 22, 2016 1:53 pm 12
The first paragraph is a perfect description of how I ended up here instead of reading the Weekly Standard and National Review. It sure seemed like the people they sliced off were the ones who actually intended to legislate or govern as conservatives. It slowly dawned on a lot of us that these people are full of shit and part of the government gravy train – not opposed to it.
Taco_Town #21864 November 22, 2016 2:02 pm 4
I would add a second category to non-conservatives after this past election and the #nevertrump crap: empty virtue signalers. Turns out we have our share on the right too.
Deplorable Black Man #21833 November 22, 2016 11:01 am 11
This is a great post because it reflects the reality that we are in deeply weird times. I share Z’s commitment to the ideal of “no enemies to the right” but there are, and will be, con men out there trying to take advantage of us normals. One hope is that the con men won’t be able to resist doing stuff that will reveal their true selves. That Richard Spenser “Hail Trump” moment is one of them, and I think Cernovich did a great job exposing it for what it was – a hijacking of the Trump movement to suit his own ends.
Taco_Town #21834 November 22, 2016 11:08 am 2
Just read Cernovich’s commentary on Richard Spenserhttp://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/11/21/this-is-what-controlled-opposition-looks-like/ While it certainly looks like Spenser is a false flag, I must also say that I have seen and heard things from the darker corners of the alt-right on the same level. That sort of stuff doesn’t drive me off, but it does beg the question of how to handle this sort of thing when it comes to building a winning coalition.
thezman #21843 November 22, 2016 12:52 pm 10
Race realism is fine. I’m a biological realist. I think public policy should accept human diversity and exploit it. A city like Baltimore, for example, should engineer its school system to match the population. But, America is a big country with lots of different people. You have to respect that and do what must be done to keep the peace. Some of these guys are just trying to stir up trouble.
Taco_Town #21851 November 22, 2016 1:14 pm 1
I wasn’t so much talking about race realism in isolation so much as race realism combined with not giving a F$%& and aggressive hostility. I’ve seen it out there.
thezman #21846 November 22, 2016 1:06 pm 1
I’m not sure about the false flag stuff. I think Spencer and his merry band of preppy fascists just like playing dress up and performing.
LetsPlay #21899 November 22, 2016 9:42 pm 2
In the market of ideas, I don’t think you “handle” anything. You let it “out” and if it has legs it will continue. If not, it will die of it’s own lack of intellectual honesty. If it has legs, then we have something to worry about. Right now, I think the real problem is still the Left/Socialism and the threat of radical Islam.
thezman #21844 November 22, 2016 12:53 pm 6
I was not disturb by it. I was embarrassed for Peter Brimelow and the others who went there with good intentions. These idiots just made fools of themselves and everyone there.
Zeroh Tollrants #21910 November 23, 2016 7:48 am 5
While not a wise move, in the defense of the younger members at the conference, they were merely in high spirits, goofing around. Spencer gave a studious 40 min presentation, and while “Hail Trump, Hail Victory” might offend some as a toast, (that’s what was happening, btw), I am fairly certain that no one has removed the infamous “Hail To The Chief,” in regards to our president, so I’m having trouble being vexed by his comment. As to the Roman salutes, what you didn’t see on the video was one of the trollier Alt Right guys was up on stage & he threw the salute as a mocking gesture of the constant refrain of Alt Right/Repubs are all neoNazi racists, and a handful of young guys did the same. Yes, it was an unforced error, in that while the prankster thought all media had already exited the premises, a few were still covertly mingled in.Personally, it seems to me as if all too many are dancing to the media’s ever present tune & are panicking & disavowing what doesn’t require it.Best to just ignore them or tell them to stuff it. Denial & disavowal along w/ $5 still leaves you in their eyes as a racist holding a 5 spot, regardless.
Zeroh Tollrants #21909 November 23, 2016 7:33 am 2
Cernovich could not have possibly been more wrong with his weird purity spiraling assessment. He called himself a Libertarian up until earlier in the year when the term Alt Right, (coined & began by Spencer yrs ago), hit mainstream. He began tweeting that he had switched to Alt Right when he realized the reality of white genocide. He has now deleted those tweets. He also slandered Spencer as some covert FBI type infiltrator to his own movement, and continued to come unhinged on Twitter, about something he only had basic info about, from The Atlantic. For someone who has railed daily against the dishonest media, & now makes his bones from this shtick, why he would believe & fall for their narrative & come unhinged over something not concerning him, rather than just keep his mouth shut or privately request info from the participants, is someone who cannot be counted as a stalwart ally for any movement.
james wilson #21884 November 22, 2016 5:21 pm 10
Alt-right is a term sometimes used by right wingers to distinguish themselves from housebroken conservatives, and always a term, when used by Progs , to signify right wing lunatics. By progish definition, all the Founders were alt-right, Federalist and anti-Federalist. That is a club I would join, and it would be my first.
The Bagman #21842 November 22, 2016 12:50 pm 10
One pitfall of being somewhat-well-informed in the information age is that we encounter all this complexity and can’t digest it all. Disinfo everywhere abounds, and the border between sincere and insincere is as porous as our border with Mexico.Is Richard Spencer a LARPer who has mostly reined in his extravagance and wears a suit as a gesture of self control? Is he a stuffed shirt who sometimes plays at being edgy? Is he a closeted homosexual? Did Viktor Orban ban him from Hungary because he’s a White Nationalist? Because of his wife’s shady connections?Cernovich seems sincere about at least two things: his insistence that nobody knows what he actually thinks, and his goal of becoming Too Big to Ignore. Folks project all sorts of things onto him. He’s a force for free speech, so I’m not sure this projection even harms him at all.Regardless of ideology, one thing the new national populisms here and in Europe all have in common is a desire to see historically European countries remain representative of European-style civilization–however inchoate this desire may be. It seems to me that all those who would prefer to live in whitish countries (including those who want to move thence from elsewhere) are on a continuum of which Richard Spencer and Cernovich are a part, no matter what either of them really thinks.Only those who insist they want to make white countries into banana republics or caliphates and expect us to overlook their unwillingness to move to any of the banana republics and caliphates we already have are off this spectrum entirely. The tragedy is that we barely out-voted these people here in the USA, and we’ve yet to see if Europe will be able to do so.
Taco_Town #21825 November 22, 2016 10:35 am 10
At some point the Alt-Right is going to have to grow up and make the transition from commentary to power. We got lucky that the American electorate and Trump were ahead of the curve, as we still aren’t ready for prime time. Power isn’t pretty, and the sort of thing you describe goes with the territory. What is important is not the flaws of our leaders, but that they deliver and that we hold them accountable.
DFCtomm #21886 November 22, 2016 5:34 pm 9
Well Z, as the saying goes: you might not be interested in racial politics but it’s interested in you. The balkanization of the U.S. has created cracks, and when pressure is applied to the structure then it will break along those cracks. That is simply the reality, but as long as the checks keep coming it’ll hold together. The problem is we got crazy people trying to run the economy, trade policy, and monetary policy. Don’t expect the checks to keep coming forever.
notsothoreau #21896 November 22, 2016 9:19 pm 7
Here’s the problem: we’ve made racism such a taboo that most people haven’t read any really racist stuff. I worked for a guy that considered himself a real racist. He subscribed to the Thunderbolt, where they liked to talk about the “mud people” and what miscegenation would do. He also had George Lincoln Rockwell’s biography. I read some of it, because I like to get my information first hand. I learned enough to know that what I’ve seen from the Alt-Right is not the sort of racism I read about from those publications. (I don’t know a lot about Stormfront, but they seem a bit like posers to me.)Is it wrong to say that there is a culture formed by Western Civilization and it was created by white men? Can we have a discussion about how people might want to live in a culture of their own choosing? I don’t think we are well served by pretending that there aren’t some differences here. I think that we might be more successful with education children if we acknowledge the differences between boys and girls and possibly the races. I think we should be able to celebrate the good parts of our culture without having to constantly apologize for it. I think the best thing that could happen to this country would be the end of political correctness.
A.T. Tapman Merica #21900 November 22, 2016 10:06 pm 3
But if Political Correctness were to end feels would be hurt.
Taco_Town #21902 November 22, 2016 10:18 pm 9
Younger minorities also haven’t experienced the racism that existed in the 60s and before firsthand. We have allowed racism to be defined by those who would use it to their political advantage for too long now.
Jim VA #21894 November 22, 2016 9:07 pm 7
The ALT-Right movement is generally the successful answer to the cuckservative movement described in the earlier post “Beyond Left and Right.”Don’t overthink it. Don’t control it. Don’t disparage it. We are not the Progressive Party which organizes its way to groupthink victory. Let complexity win.Besides, with the DNC and the media imploding, any continued distraction on their part spells continued suicide and delay at introspection. There is at least some chance that Progressivism will significantly shrink its own followers by the next election if it continues in its present tantrum. Messy coalitions aid the right; they don’t detract from it, especially in the Internet age. THAT is what Buckley missed.Trump could hasten this decline by changing internet platforms away from FB and Twitter and ignoring the MSM, and he may be smart enough to do it.
Taco_Town #21903 November 22, 2016 10:20 pm 9
The Alt-Right isn’t a philosophy, it’s just people admitting to and speaking what everybody else is feeling.
el_baboso #21824 November 22, 2016 10:17 am 7
It has been pointed out by many that religion helps control freeloading in a village or tribe. Ideology serves the same role in a movement. Non-ideological movements like the tea party and alt-right will be very prone to capture by grifters.
thezman #21826 November 22, 2016 10:35 am 10
That’s a good point. I’m not big into purges or any of that stuff, but you have to police the ranks. There are people flying the alt-right flag now who will end up embarrassing themselves and everyone else. You can just see it coming.
Taco_Town #21828 November 22, 2016 10:44 am 7
There is a fine line there. I have read some of the darker corners of the Alt-Right, and a lot of what is said would blow the minds of the average Trump voters. We also don’t want to fall into the same PC trap that the cuckservatives have fallen into.
Uncle_Max #21854 November 22, 2016 1:34 pm 3
The problem is, like the Tea Party, anyone can claim alt-right. And the media and establishment are all to happy to pick the worst and call it representative OR as with the Tea Party, actually infiltrate and use it as a funding mechanism until it’s marginalized. Taco, you are right, obviously, there is some odd ones either lumping themselves in or being lumped in with ” the alt-right”.
Taco_Town #21859 November 22, 2016 1:51 pm 7
I think the Tea Party movement gets a bad rap. The whole thing became muddled and it’s public face kind of imploded, but I think the rank and file still held true and were a driving force behind Donald Trump. The Tea Party got an undeserved reputation for being pro Traditional Conservative when in reality it was more along the lines of F*** Washington. I remember an old interview with a rank and file Tea Party supporter. A right wing journalist asked her what the Tea Party was all about, and she answered “the Republican Party is full of S***”. The Republican Party being full of S*** was a driving force behind Trump in the primaries, and we even invented a word for it in ‘cuckservative’.Things may get messy and confusing for the alt-right, but the underlying message will endure.
hokkoda #21946 November 23, 2016 4:55 pm 1
“and a lot of what is said would blow the minds of the average Trump voters.” Hence the effort on the part of the Government Party media to bring alt right into the mainstream. Then they’ll start trying to silence dissent by pegging anybody who opposes them as alt right. It’s not an accident that this term, alt right, is suddenly everywhere. The Tea Party is defunct, so they need a new boogey man.
el_baboso #21830 November 22, 2016 10:49 am 2
Maybe the innernets will let us do some sort of crowd-sourced vetting. I always got the impression that the tea party was more into newsletters and Rotary Club meetings than blogs.
chiefIlliniCake #21874 November 22, 2016 3:56 pm 0
Your choice of topic was quite prescient today, Z. Donald Trump just enequivocable disavowed the Alt Right. That’s gonna make it hard for Cernicich or Lester to peddle Trump gear.
chiefIlliniCake #21875 November 22, 2016 3:58 pm 0
Spencer, not Lester. And unequivocaly. Damn spellcheck!
hokkoda #21945 November 23, 2016 4:53 pm 1
That’s actually a good thing. It’s a bit like flag burning types. I’m not fond of what they do, especially since I and most of my family and extended family served in uniform, but the benefit of flag burning is that it’s important to know where the crazies are. Even non-ideological people get their hackles up over flag burning. Or, those Mexican Pride protests prior to the 2007 amnesty. People think it was the legislation itself that killed Bush/McCain amnesty. Nope. It was the Mexican-flag-waiving antipatriots at all those parades. They did themselves in.The more looney and unserious these self-proclaimed alt righters look and sound, the less effective of a weapon calling somebody “alt right” will be. If you sound even moderately sane, and the NYT calls you “alt right”, people are going to do the same thing they did with Trump: ignore it and move on.
FaCubeItches #21889 November 22, 2016 5:44 pm -1
If one discounts the fact that in many – if not most – religions, the priests are the biggest freeloaders of all.
Taco_Town #21832 November 22, 2016 10:55 am 6
At this point, what is and isn’t acceptable? I don’t really consider Milo all that pure when it comes to the cause, but at the same time he’s one of our more effective advocates. On the other end, there are race realists using language that makes even me blush, and others advocating abandoning democracy in favor of a return to ariwtocracy/monarchy. Who and what are we supposed to police?
Dutch #21857 November 22, 2016 1:46 pm 8
I treat Milo as entertainment. He goes where other humorists won’t go. Which is the name of the game in all great comedy. The best entertainment and humor addresses and exposes underlying truth. That Milo can find such a rich vein of material suggests how stunted and odd our society has become.
Taco_Town #21827 November 22, 2016 10:38 am 6
As for Mike Cernovich, I haven’t been following him too closely either. I do respect that he takes more enemy fire than just about anyone and it just bounces right off of him, that he has attracted one of the larger followings on our side, and that he released and started peddling MAGA mindset long before Trump actually won. The last of those was a fairly bold move.
thezman #21831 November 22, 2016 10:50 am 2
I think I have a pretty good read on Coulter. I’m not entirely sure on people like Cernovich or Beale. I need to see more to make a judgement. Spencer strikes me as quite silly, if you want to know the truth. His thing looks like boys playing dress up. I could be all wrong on that, but that’s my impression at the moment.
Dan Kurt #21837 November 22, 2016 11:22 am 5
re: Cernovich Watch some of the videos of Stefan Molyneux & Cernovich discussing various topics. It is entertaining and will give you a painless introduction to Cernovich. Here are three:1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVVtbg0nkxg2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShXPY5brxmM3)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b73CJWrDFXE(Here Vox Day appears, another star of the Alt-right.) Dan Kurt
notsothoreau #21893 November 22, 2016 9:06 pm 1
Actually, I watched Chernovich do a live feed outside the Democratic convention. Bernie supporters were protesting and the media couldn’t bother to cover it. It was interesting to watch, the idea of citizen journalists.
Rurik #21892 November 22, 2016 7:48 pm 0
Coulter, in addition for having crushes on Romney and Christie, earlier was all hot for Jim Webb, and if he had gone for the Demo nomination, she would probably have defected to follow him. Ann is a lawyer and a very combative person.Sometimes this leads her lady bits astray.
LetsPlay #21898 November 22, 2016 9:36 pm 0
Now that is funny! Well said. I like Ann and I like her style but I think you spoke the truth there. And Zman, you are correct, she likes to hawk her books!There are people who speak truth and need to make money to survive. I respect people who can offer some freebies of their advice along with the wisdom of their writings in book form, dead trees or digital. But those who stick exclusively to “buy me” only, well, I have to wonder about their complete sincerity. Especially when there is a war on and minds need to be reached and people educated. I think of this as part of “giving back.”
Zeroh Tollrants #21908 November 23, 2016 7:22 am 4
You’ve actually missed a major point with Coulter. She wasn’t targeting these people as her choices randomly, but for specific policies they were espousing. Her Romney push was for one thing only-his purported toughness on the border. She freely acknowledged the other issues w/him, but was well aware that the border/immigration issue are the numbers 1-100 in importance. She was extremely tough, (as she well should’ve been), against Rino extraordinaire, Juan McCain, even to the point of signaling she’d vote for Hillary, if need be. This wasn’t due to wishy washiness, but purely strategic rhetoric to wake up zombie lemming Republican voters. Nothing to do with “lady bits.”
George Eliot #21911 November 23, 2016 8:05 am -1
Coulter follows whatever strong horse will get her where her ideology wants to go. She’s a power-watcher, like some people watch and categorize and journal about horses at the track. She has no problem abandoning a bad even after the pack has left the gate.
Severian #21839 November 22, 2016 12:34 pm 5
I’ve been saying for years now that today’s blue-haired bicurious vegan slam poet is tomorrow’s obergruppenfuhrer… and this how it happens. Those people most certainly fall under the umbrella of “fringe weirdo.” Their lives revolve around being on the bleeding edge of everything, and as the Alt-Right gains momentum, they’ll flip… and the grifters will be happy to sell them the jackboots, armbands, marching songs, merit badges, etc. A few years from now, all the hipsters will be wearing Pepe-logoed urban combat camo and yelling that they’ve *always* been race realists.
ganderson #21848 November 22, 2016 1:09 pm 5
I wonder how many commies fighting Nazis in the streets in 1930-32 later became Nazis. Quite a few, I’d guess
Severian #21855 November 22, 2016 1:38 pm 6
Goebbels himself boasted he could turn a die-hard communist into a committed Nazi in two weeks… but he couldn’t reach a Liberal Democrat (says Hoffer inThe True Believer,and I believe it. Professors were the earliest and most zealous converts to Hitlerism – be sure to remind any academics of your acquaintance of that fact).
Dutch #21858 November 22, 2016 1:48 pm 15
Because those that want to control the thoughts and lives of others don’t really care about the process used to get there. Those who want the freedom to be left alone are very difficult to compromise.
Taco_Town #21881 November 22, 2016 5:01 pm 4
Looking at the actual video I’m confused what all the fuss is about. He said “hail Trump”(not heil) and raised a glass.
James LePore #21901 November 22, 2016 10:17 pm 0
I agree but many in the crowd did the Nazi salute, which, along with the swastika (whatever their origin or original meaning) are now symbols of evil. They might as well have put on white hoods and burned crosses. Pretty stupid.
guest #21907 November 23, 2016 6:43 am 4
But they are called nazis regardless, and have been since day one. Can you name one single pro white individual, who isn’t called a nazi by the msm? It’s a heads I win, tails you lose situation with them, if you oppose the white genocide agenda, you are evil, if you don’t grovel down before them you are a nazi. I mean if milk toast Spencer is a nazi, then we are all nazis, even the z man, which is just “the man” said in a German accent, ergo nazi.
James LePore #21915 November 23, 2016 8:29 am 0
I don’t know much about the pro-white people, but I will assume for the sake of argument that they do not wish to invade neighboring countries or initiate another holocaust. Giving the Nazi salute was probably just childish and stupid, but it exposes them to being equated with Nazi atrocities. This can’t help their cause.
guest #21879 November 22, 2016 4:42 pm 4
Z Man on Disqus: “Stop it with the “Roman salute” stuff. Everyone knows exactly what they meant and why they did it. These are a bunch of boys playing dress up and performing for the cameras. They made fools of themselves and have now disqualified themselves from serious company.” To be fair, he was holding a glass, you can’t sieg heil with a glass in your hand, that’s called a toast. That or i was unknowingly sieg heiling at every wedding i ever went to…
Taco_Town #21880 November 22, 2016 4:58 pm 0
I’ve only heard about this event through third parties, where is the Nazi salute thing coming from? Did the audience do it in response to his toast, or is this all nonsense?
thezman #21891 November 22, 2016 7:13 pm 4
I saw a bunch of idiots pretending they were a Nazi rally in 1938. I also know Spencer is smart enough to know his “Hail Trump” was going to get his nutjob followers breaking out the crazy dance. I’m sorry, but the more I think about it, the less I like Spencer. I don’t trust him.
Whitney #21853 November 22, 2016 1:29 pm 4
I’m reasonably well informed and I had no idea who Richard Spencer was. I do know to beware of people seeking fame and power though.
Drake #21862 November 22, 2016 1:56 pm 3
I still have no idea who he is. I’ve read Cernovich a few times. He seems to be on the right track although I’m far too skeptical to trust internet people these days.
Taco_Town #21870 November 22, 2016 2:15 pm 0
I had never heard of Spenser either before Z and Vox Day had written about him today.
Dave #21835 November 22, 2016 11:12 am 4
FWIW both Milo and Mike Cernovich say they are not alt right.
Ben H #21923 November 23, 2016 10:00 am 3
I’ve been reading Vox Day on and off for a decade and a half. He’s pretty much the same guy now as then, so at least he’s consistent. Cernovich seems like a guy who jumps on trends to sell his ebooks. He seems pretty harmless.Spencer on the other hand seems like someone trying to be the Bill Buckley of the 21st century. Apparently this includes running a secret handshake club where he takes people for real money (http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/8971-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-phalanx-but-were-afraid-to-ask-because-you-would-look-stupid-for-wondering/). He seems like a person with poor judgment. And you’re right, for s guy who is supposedly influential I have never seen him referenced by someone he influenced.
thezman #21928 November 23, 2016 10:32 am 2
My goodness. I guess I’m not the only one thinking the guy just likes playing dress up. As I said, I have not made up my mind on VD and Cernovich, but Spencer has always struck me as being a poofberry, but one easily ignored.
white man in a box #21905 November 23, 2016 1:43 am 3
> Spencer invests a lot of time declaring himself the Pope of the alt-rightNo he doesn’t. He disavows it. I suppose he lets people call him that but he knows it’s bigger than he is and that it would survive without him. He does a lot to organize it though.All you people saying you’re knowledgeable about the alt-right but haven’t heard of Richard Spencer are kidding yourselves. As I’m sure has been pointed out in here, he /invented/ the term and has been on lots of podcasts, and appeared, nay, pretty much /led/ the conference with Jared Taylor and Brimelow when Hillary first mentioned the alt-right. He leads, even if he’s careful not to call himself the leader.But yes that was an unfortunate response to a dangerous toast – stirring words in front of a bunch of kids who post Nazi Pepe memes.
thezman #21906 November 23, 2016 6:42 am 3
He did not invent the term. Paul Gottfried invented the term. As with so much of Spencer’s act, there’s a kernel of truth to what he says, but a lot of nonsense too. Spencer simply booked the web site. Gottfried used the term in a speech and that’s when Spencer got it.
Zeroh Tollrants #21912 November 23, 2016 8:05 am 4
I’ve heard that both ways, so I’ll say that you probably are correct. However, in his defense, he was forming the movement, or rather the basis for the ideology, and calling it the Dissident Right, along w/ Brimelow, Derbyshire, etc., and the collision between those guys and the younger, in your face, meme warriors, is the only reason this stuff is getting oxygen now. I’m not actually that huge a Spencer fan, despite my posts on this thread, but I definitely know who’s been in the trenches formulating thoughts and policies for yrs, and who has not.I think the confusion rises between what folks like Vox Day call the “Alt Right,” and the “Alt Light,” or “Alt West.” I doubt there’d be much quibbling about all this in a sane world where white ppl weren’t terrified to admit they were proud to be white ppl, but that’s not our reality.
Hercule Poirot #21873 November 22, 2016 3:56 pm 3
“The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again.” Maybe not in America, although I am skeptical of this claim. In Europe, “normal countries” are white ethno-states by definition. This doesn’t detract from your main point, but the dismissive tone of certain US commentators about the alt-white faction grates a lot on this side of the Atlantic.
TempoNick #21885 November 22, 2016 5:23 pm 4
In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s one rallying cry in Europe was “Macedonia for the Macedonians,” meaning liberation from the Ottoman Empire and creation of a nation-state for the Macedonian people. Like you said, by definition this means white and caucasian. Likewise when it comes to the alt-right movement which could just as easily use “America for the Americans” as its rallying cry.
fred z #21913 November 23, 2016 8:07 am 2
I should like to reverse an old proverb: Keep your enemies close, keep your friends even closer”. We tend to watch our enemies closely but tend to trust our friends and give them some slack. This is a mistake as they are as full of sin as anyone else.
guest #21878 November 22, 2016 4:31 pm 2
Spencer didn’t even sieg heil anyone, he raised his glass and said hail victory. Watch the full 30min thing here:Richard Spencer – NPI 2016, Full Speech And like i always say, if you aren’t sieg heiled into your forehead, where’s the problem? To avoid that i switched to thecasual heila long time ago, problem solved!
hokkoda #21944 November 23, 2016 4:48 pm 1
Like you’ve written before, a religion doesn’t necessarily need angels, but it does need devils. I’m sure somebody, somewhere, has a coherent definition of alt right that suits their purposes. But, to distill it down into liberal-speak succinctly, alt right = Klan. That’s it, nothing more. They need a devil, and they need to tie that devil to Trump and the GOP in as few steps as possible. If Trump hires a guy who they have decided is alt right (it doesn’t matter if it’s true, or even if there’s an actual definition of alt right everybody can agree upon), then Trump is alt right. If Trump hires a guy who knows a guy who was college roommates with the a guy who is alt right…that’s harder to sell.You’ll see more and more writing (there’s been much already) that alt right = white supremacists. I have no idea if that definition is true, but the intent of the media in talking about it all the time is to mainstream the new name for the liberal’s latest devil…and then proclaim they’ve uncovered a vast network for devil worshipers.Alt right largely emerged this year (at least in my recollection) as anybody who called themselves conservative, but who wasn’t buying the Bush/Ryan/Boehner/McConnell/ConservativeInc.Media definition of a conservative. Or, a conservative who was voting for Trump. Or, most accurately, an immigration patriot anti-open-borders type. In fact, if you had to put down a specific definition of alt right, the most likely line of demarcation would be border/law enforcement. It’s just another way the guardians of conservatism purge out the voices which oppose the Government Party. The first time I can recall reading about alt right was over at NR and specifically in reference to Trump’s base of support in the primaries. (turned out, his base was anything but, not that it stopped them from lobbing the grenade)Anyway, good post, keep up the great work and Happy Thanksgiving!
thezman #21947 November 23, 2016 5:38 pm 1
I was posting on Audacious Epigone’s blog about this and I’m pretty much in the Cernovich camp. Spencer is going to be the media’s Adolph P. Keaton. It’s the same game they played with David Duke in the 80’s and into the 90’s. They trotted out Duke as representative of the sort of people voting Republican. Once Clinton was in the White House, we stopped hearing about Duke. They tried to bring him out of moth ball this time, but it was just too ridiculous. Now that have Spencer, the preppy fascist.
Montefrio #21849 November 22, 2016 1:09 pm 1
Anyone wants a frog, I’ll give ’em a frog! Here’s the frog I’ve stood behind since I was a wee tyke!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H35odPm7b3wNow THAT’S a frog!I think your wise to have doubts about that guy. One quick look at the website and I had a horrible flashback to Susan Powter, the “stoop the madness” lady. Ann Coulter even looks a bit like her if memory serves.Once the initial carny enthusiasm wears off, it’ll be interesting to see who’s left standing. Plenty of phonies in the initial mix? I have no doubt at all. Our host has already earned his non-profit-thinker creds, so I’ll rely upon him to do the heavy lifting in the weeding department.
Donald Herbert Walker Trump The Z Blog #30945 April 7, 2017 0
[…] Maybe Trump recovers and avoids the fate Bush I, but I have my doubts. […]
Epaminondas #21974 November 25, 2016 8:48 am 0
We have to be careful to distinguish white nationalism from extremist white supremacism. White nationalism simply posits that Europeans have a right to nation states where they are the core ethnicity, as opposed to the ONLY ethnicity or “master race.” It’s a big distinction, and one that the Lügenpresse is very happy to overlook. In fact the MSM is actively seeking to confuse the public by pretending they are the same. Richard Spencer is not a white supremacist.
thezman #21975 November 25, 2016 9:41 am 1
A good way to work toward that goal is to avoid using terms like “Lügenpresse” and other Nazi terminology. These guys give themselves away with the adoption of the Nazi aesthetic. They go out of their way to borrow these terms and symbols and then play innocent when called on it.
jrackell #22022 November 26, 2016 5:11 am 0
Who’s calling them on it? The Lugenpresse or those punching right?You say, to paraphrase, who’s heard of Richard Spencer. Well, obviously Peter Brimelow, Jared Taylor and Kevin MacDonald have heard of him since he got them to attend his conference; anybody who’s been a long time reader of Takimag has, since he was an editor there; any old reader of The American Conservative should have since he was an editor there, that includes that no name guy Patrick Buchanan who was involved with AmCon at the same time; any listener of James Edward’s Political Cesspool should have since he’s been a guest there multiple times; and Jack Donovan knows who he is because he’s been a guest at Spencer’s conference several times (and gave great speeches and I don’t care that he is gay).Yeah, all these guys are big fish in a small pond or rather niche markets, but it adds up. I’d say a lot of people have heard of him.And yes, you’re punching right despite your rhetorical stance that you’re not.
thezman #22027 November 26, 2016 8:14 am 1
No enemies to the Right does not require me to embrace a horse’s ass like Spencer. Frankly, Spencer is not even on the Right, according to his own testimony, so you should pay closer attention to the words of your Dorkenfuehrer.
Skepticism is a good thing IowaDawg Musings More #21890 November 22, 2016 6:53 pm 0
[…] SOURCE […]
Karl Hungus #21867 November 22, 2016 2:09 pm 0
the alt-right is a young man’s game. fine for browsing (walk on the wild side) but no place for old men 🙂
Taco_Town #21869 November 22, 2016 2:12 pm 1
30 minutes in /pol will confirm that times infinity.
J Clivas #21872 November 22, 2016 3:01 pm 1
Could you try to be less prolix?


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